Chimango Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 ... that was BVR until the last kill' date=' anything beyond five or so miles is BVR and those two kills were achieved with the R-27 against superior numbers, who were slinging 120's, so can the complaining stop?[/quote'] Nope, that video shows nothing that contradicts our bug report. There's just 1 ER kill and probably wasn't beyond 15km. Other 2 kills are with ET and R-73. There are many tracks posted here and in bug report threads that show ER bugged behaviour. But at this point, i realize after so many posts from you replying to other people, that trying to discuss with you, it's as useful as discussing with a brick wall. 666GIAP_Chimanov - My Tomcat tribute video, type on youtube browser=> "DCS F-14 Tomcat Symphony" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn kamikaze Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 You're just assuming it is a bug, there is a lot more to missiles effectiveness than just pure kinematic range. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn kamikaze Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 But at this point, i realize after so many posts from you replying to other people, that trying to discuss with you, it's as useful as discussing with a brick wall. Discussions are a two way street, and all I've had is people just ignore anything and everything I've said, dismissing any source that I post that does not agree with them out of hand, and expecting me to accept their sources as gospel. That's not being talked to, that's being talked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweep Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I don't know if a tank driver throws some bubble gum wrap it'll probably spoof it. :megalol: :megalol: :megalol: I actually LOL'ed at that, thank you. :thumbup: Lord of Salt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) LOL' date=' you can't just take manufacturers claims at face value, as you say they're trying to sell it.:megalol:[/quote'] I don't have to. I can take the word of the same source that you yourself quote so often. Discussions are a two way street, and all I've had is people just ignore anything and everything I've said, Here is a list of my points and counterpoints you have yet to respond to, please note that it is not exhaustive, I simply consider these points to be the primary evidence that the R-27 is under-performing: 1: According you a source you have already given your stamp of approval, the R-27ER has an effective range against head-on targets of 60km 2: According to that same source, it has an effective maximum range of approximately 120 km. dismissing any source that I post that does not agree with them out of hand, and expecting me to accept their sources as gospel. Here is an exhaustive list of out-of-hand dismissals you have made so far in this thread: 1: In this post, we see you ignoring a set of well-reasoned arguments to throw an ad-hominem attack at the poster who made them Sorry' date=' but you just sound like you're ignoring it because it is inconvenient.[/quote'] 2: In this post, we see you blowing someone else off by telling him to do your research for you. You can check the citations.... 3: In this post, we see you ignoring the figure for effective range so that you can make a straw-man argument out of the maximum range. Those figures will be max kinematic range 4: In this post, we see you deliberately misrepresenting my words in order to avoid responding to the entire rest of my post. YOU said between 60 and 120Km effective! Shooting at 120 will not be effective, so make your mind up. 5: In this post, you deliberately misrepresent my previous post, again. Your own post. First you say it has an effective range of 120Km, then you say its max range is less than that, and its effective range is only 62.5, that makes 120 a bit of a stretch. 6: In this post you are dismissing my repeated attempts to take your words back out of my mouth. You said it, maybe you didn't mean to but you did. You don't want to accept accounts of actual real world performance, so don't call me biased! 7: In this post, you dismiss every argument that everyone in this thread who has NOT stated a desire for parity of performance with the -120 (IE: you've blown off everyone in the thread in a single sentence) Yet every complaint I've seen has been about not being able to succeed against AIM-120 armed opponents. 8: In this post, you dismiss several posts I have made quoting a source you yourself often quote. You're making assumptions based on nothing other than theoretical performance... 9: In this post, you forgot to quote the last sentence of the Darkwolf, which was "haven't tested recent patch tho- I stopped su-27 when Mig-21 was released". Since DarkWold has not played the Su-27 in 1.5, he cannot have had success using R-27 missiles in the manner described. A fact which you conveniently ignore to dismiss the rest of our arguments with a single word. Exactly. 10: In this post, you dismiss everyone who is not wishing for any such thing. I'm getting pretty tired of people pretending (wishing) that the R-27 is anywhere near as capable as the AIM-120, range is not the only thing... 11: In this post, you ignore my repeated assertion, grounded in widely available literature, that the missile has a 60km effective kill range. You're just assuming it is a bug' date=' there is a lot more to missiles effectiveness than just pure kinematic range.[/quote'] To sum it all up, you are the most complete hypocrite I have ever met. You have spent this entire thread (and at least one other recent thread) doing the very things that you are continuously whining and complaining that the rest of are doing to you. Edited November 21, 2015 by ShuRugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn kamikaze Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) 1: According you a source you have already given your stamp of approval, the R-27ER has an effective range against head-on targets of 60km 2: According to that same source, it has an effective maximum range of approximately 120 km.So which is it, and against what, a bomber, a fighter, it does make a difference considering the subject of this thread is against an F-15... 1: In this post, we see you ignoring a set of well-reasoned arguments to throw an ad-hominem attack at the poster who made themYou consider that ad-hominiem, really? 2: In this post, we see you blowing someone else off by telling him to do your research for you.No, the citations are those little [#] bits, as I said, you can check them, all you have to do is click on them and read... 3: In this post, we see you ignoring the figure for effective range so that you can make a straw-man argument out of the maximum range.No, max realistic engagement range, and max kinematic range are not the same thing, the missile may fly out to the max kinematic range, but that is where it litterally just can't fly anymore, long before that point it is at its max range. 4: In this post, we see you deliberately misrepresenting my words in order to avoid responding to the entire rest of my post.Again, no, I even quoted yourself exactly what you wrote. 5: In this post, you deliberately misrepresent my previous post, again.Again no, you were quite specific. 6: In this post you are dismissing my repeated attempts to take your words back out of my mouth.They were your words. 7: In this post, you dismiss every argument that everyone in this thread who has NOT stated a desire for parity of performance with the -120 (IE: you've blown off everyone in the thread in a single sentence)That is how the complaints have come across to me, that everyone is just upset they're having trouble against the F-15. 8: In this post, you dismiss several posts I have made quoting a source you yourself often quote.Considering you dismissed it when it was inconvenient, you have no leg to stand on. 9: In this post, you forgot to quote the last sentence of the Darkwolf, which was "haven't tested recent patch tho- I stopped su-27 when Mig-21 was released". Since DarkWold has not played the Su-27 in 1.5, he cannot have had success using R-27 missiles in the manner described. A fact which you conveniently ignore to dismiss the rest of our arguments with a single word.I was commenting on the tactics, not a specific engagement, and I'll say it again, the tactics work, I've been using them, even today with the current build. 10: In this post, you dismiss everyone who is not wishing for any such thing.No, I wasn't, I was responding to a specific poster, go have a look at what I quoted. 11: In this post, you ignore my repeated assertion, grounded in widely available literature, that the missile has a 60km effective kill range.Oh so now it's an effective kill range, you see before you said it was also effective at 120Km, now correct me if I'm wrong, but to be "effective" it must actually hit, it is only effective at 120Km if it HITS at 120Km, and no I was not even talking to you, I was talking to Chimango, the world does not revolve around you To sum it all up, you are the most complete hypocrite I have ever met. You have spent this entire thread (and at least one other recent thread) doing the very things that you are continuously whining and complaining that the rest of are doing to you.To sum it all up, you won't listen to an actual real world source if it disagrees with you, you don't seem to see a difference between effective kill range, and max range, as I have just explained in this very post, see above, you don't seem to understand what checking a citation means, and if I am a hypocrite then so are you, but you know what else you are, too arrogant to ever admit it. Over and out. Edited November 22, 2015 by Cap'n kamikaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) So which is it' date=' and against what, a bomber, a fighter, it does make a difference considering the subject of this thread is against an F-15...[/quote'] what do you mean "which is it?" Are you really so ignorant of missile combat that you don't understand that the usable range of the missile varies depending on the conditions under which it is launched? Ok, barney-style: 60km is the range at which a kill is reasonable to expect for a head-on closing target. 120km is the maximum range at which it is possible to achieve a kill, though the launch parameters would probably require that both the launching AC and the target be near their service ceilings, and that the target completely fail to evade. You consider that ad-hominiem, really? 12 No, the citations are those little [#] bits, as I said, you can check them, all you have to do is click on them and read... 13 No, max realistic engagement range (60km), and max kinematic range (120 km) are not the same thing, the missile may fly out to the max kinematic range, but that is where it litterally just can't fly anymore, long before that point it is at its max range. not sure how many times i'm gonna have to paint this particular picture for you... Do i need to invest in a photocopier, or a braille printer? Again, no, I even quoted yourself exactly what you wrote. yes, you quoted the part of that sentence that said "between 60 and 120km". What you failed to quote was the part that said "depending on what source you choose to believe". This is called "taking words out of context", which is a form of misrepresentation. Again no, you were quite specific. 14 They were your words. 15 That is how the complaints have come across to me, that everyone is just upset they're having trouble against the F-15. Well, at least you are capable of admitting that you're putting words in my mouth. Considering you dismissed it when it was inconvenient, you have no leg to stand on. I did? which post? I was commenting on the tactics, not a specific engagement, and I'll say it again, the tactics work, I've been using them, even today with the current build. .acmi or it didn't happen. No, I wasn't, I was responding to a specific poster, go have a look at what I quoted. okay... I'm getting pretty tired of people pretending (wishing) that the R-27 is anywhere near as capable as the AIM-120, range is not the only thing... "people" is plural. Were you responding to "people" or to "one specific person"? Oh so now it's an effective kill range, you see before you said it was also effective at 120Km, now correct me if I'm wrong, but to be "effective" it must actually hit, it is only effective at 120Km if it HITS at 120Km, congratulations, you caught me in a typo. After repeating the same thing half a dozen times. so, uhm, 1 point to Cap? that's how it works, right? and no I was not even talking to you, I was talking to Chimango, the world does not revolve around you Exactly, you were ignoring a post made by another forum member because you found it inconvenient. +1 hypocrisy To sum it all up, you won't listen to an actual real world source if it disagrees with you, provide one that is both credible and statistically relevant. you don't seem to see a difference between effective kill range, and max range, as I have just explained in this very post, the irony is strong with this one you don't seem to understand what checking a citation means even more irony: The original respondent whom you told to check the citations named for you the source wiki cited, before you ever told him to check it. and if I am a hypocrite then so are you, but you know what else you are, too arrogant to ever admit it. ah, the favourite closing argument of every five year old everywhere: "No! You!" From PM: I've tried to explain it to you, but I am done with you. Welcome to my ignore list, congrats you're the first on it. I suppose that is one way to concede an argument. Edited November 22, 2015 by ShuRugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted November 22, 2015 ED Team Share Posted November 22, 2015 Sigh, please learn to communicate in an adult manner guys... this thread is just hard on the eyes... If you want someone to read what your writing, and maybe submit a bug report, or hear what your saying, drop all the extra schoolyard stuff... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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