Rain Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Hey guys, I just bought MiG-21, I am wondering how is force feedback supposed to be in this bird? I got no force feedback shake effects when I pull G's. My airframe shakes in the game but there is no force feedback on the stick. Only spring effect. Any help, please? I am flying with Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2. Cheers, Rain Update: Since 1.5.2 the trim works like in Su-27 with force feedback sticks. Edited December 14, 2015 by 5./JG11_Rain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Could you please detail this issue with the model of your stick? No issue here after FF settings changes in the controller configuration area, button right of AXIS assign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share Posted December 1, 2015 I got Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2. I only feel spring effect on the stick (the joystick centers when my hand is on it). Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1.JaVA_Platypus Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Might be that there are no Force-Feedback stuff writen for this module at all. Happy Flying! :pilotfly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 Can somebody confirm are there force feedback shakes in MiG-21 when you pull G's or close to stall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 There are no stall shakes for the Mig21. The Mig21 features an all moving tailplane as it's pitch actuator, as such the airflow at high angles of attack will remain stable around the tailplane and it will not shake or "buffet" (Although the plane might). Because the tailplane remains stable you will not experience any force feedback during near stall maneuvers. Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) In the MiG-21bis manual, on page 25 it says: "FORCE FEEDBACK - DCS MiG-21BIS supports force feedback (FF). If you have a FF capable joystick, turn this option ON, it will give you a unique flying experience, and might improve aircraft handling." I got a capable force feedback joystick, but the force feedback is not working. Any help? Edited December 3, 2015 by 5./JG11_Rain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailout Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Strange, I could swear it was there but I have just tested the 21 in 1.5 and no FF. Sidewinder 2 FF here as well. It works with Ka-50, Dora but no FF for Belsimtek´s Mig and Sabre as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckle Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I have exactly the same issue. It seems to me that 3rd party planes don't have the ffb implemented properly. Works fine on Mustang, but not on Sabre or Mig 15,21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theropod Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 +1 i hope they'll add dcs level (maybe more)forcefeedback effect on future, it is good to know all third parthy addons are still wip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) Guys I don't understand why you are ignoring my reply. The Mig features feedback effects based on G load, what you would perceive to be spring load. (Higher G load, higher stick force) however they might be a little bit weak in the current implementation. Due to aerodynamics of the stabilizers there are NO stall effects on the control surfaces, or force reduction with lower airspeed. (Like for example in the L39C or the WWII planes). This is realistic behavior, it is like that in the real Mig21 and it is NOT a bug. Edited December 3, 2015 by OnlyforDCS Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HugePanic Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Simulated STICK forces is one topic, the other is "force feedback". If the MIG-21 does not have any feedback from actuator to stick, I am ok with that. BUT: Once the aircraft shackes and bounces, there are lot´s of "forces" that can are transfered. Maybe not to the stick istself, but to the pilot. herea are also storries of MIG-21 that shake so hard due to aerodynamics that the pilot cannot operate the instruments. What about gun fireing and bomb dropping? With a force-feedback stick you CANtransfer all this to the pilot. It is only REALISTIC to use the force-feedback interface to do this. From my point of view, these forces shall be implemented, since they make the simulation more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 BUT: Once the aircraft shackes and bounces, there are lot´s of "forces" that can are transfered. Maybe not to the stick istself, but to the pilot. herea are also storries of MIG-21 that shake so hard due to aerodynamics that the pilot cannot operate the instruments. What about gun fireing and bomb dropping? With a force-feedback stick you CANtransfer all this to the pilot. It is only REALISTIC to use the force-feedback interface to do this. From my point of view, these forces shall be implemented, since they make the simulation more realistic. The SU27 has stick shaking implemented for extreme AoA when the aircraft itself begins to shake violently so yeah there is that, maybe they could implement some of that stick shake in the Mig although I doubt the actual stick shakes that much in the real plane. However as for gun firing, and bomb release, those should definitely not be implemented, as they do not cause any shaking in the real plane and it would be gimmicky and not at all realistic. Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) Also when you trim the pitch in MiG-21, the force feedback stick should move like it does in Su-27. Now, its not moving when you trim it... its only moving in the game, inside the cockpit, but not the actual joystick... Edited December 3, 2015 by 5./JG11_Rain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HugePanic Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I have copied some quotes from the have donut report, see the attachements. From my perspective, the MIG had a extreme shake-level at some speed and G-combinations, as well as when firing the gun. It was so extreme, that the test pilots were not able to handle the aircraft in these condictions. Even reading the instruments was impossible. Gun firing made at least the cockpit-panel/HUD jidder is considerable. Just imagine what does your bodyl, when the whole aircraft shakes and jidders in a way that you cannot continue flying or reading the instruments? The current DCS Mig-21 shows about nothing of that. Maybe there is some effect of the speed and or g-load . I would say it is marginal. The trimmer seems to work, but here I am unsure if it is modeled realistic. All the other effects are missing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) I have copied some quotes from the have donut report, see the attachements. From my perspective, the MIG had a extreme shake-level at some speed and G-combinations, as well as when firing the gun. It was so extreme, that the test pilots were not able to handle the aircraft in these condictions. Even reading the instruments was impossible. Gun firing made at least the cockpit-panel/HUD jidder is considerable. Just imagine what does your bodyl, when the whole aircraft shakes and jidders in a way that you cannot continue flying or reading the instruments? Where does it say that the stick shakes in any of the cases? I can't read it anywhere. Sure the cockpit might shake, and the instruments might become unreadable for a few miliseconds due to vibrations. But does it say anywhere that the flight stick shakes? Nope, it says the plane shakes, not the stick shakes. Also please note that this document does not refer to the Bis version of the Mig21 which is the plane we are flying. Edited December 4, 2015 by OnlyforDCS Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Also when you trim the pitch in MiG-21, the force feedback stick should move like it does in Su-27. Now, its not moving when you trim it... its only moving in the game, inside the cockpit, but not the actual joystick... I don't have that. My stick moves with trim. (At least it did in 1.5, haven't tested with the Alpha). Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HugePanic Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 about stick shake VS Airframe shake: Exactly this is my point! I only have one tactile interface to the simulator, this is the stick. So I want to have this tactile feedback enriched with all the informations that are available for a real world pilot. If someone does not want that, I am ok with that. But for me this is mandatory for a good simulation. About the trimm feeling. This trim movement of the stick is one of the good things we have. You can feel the SAU system level the plane, so you have more information to get "into" the simulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBot Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 About the trimm feeling. This trim movement of the stick is one of the good things we have. You can feel the SAU system level the plane, so you have more information to get "into" the simulation. Unfortunately it is also broken in the MiG-21. Try the following: Trim forward while holding the stick in center position against the building up force. Despite your real stick being held in the center position, the in-game stick starts to move forward and the aircraft noses down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HugePanic Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I just tried the FF-Trimm function in DCS-1.5. It is working as it should, at least what i think it should. Trimming nose-down, moves the stick forward. So if i keep the stick centered, i have to pull back to stay level. Sounds logical to me... :joystick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBot Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I just tried the FF-Trimm function in DCS-1.5. It is working as it should, at least what i think it should. Trimming nose-down, moves the stick forward. So if i keep the stick centered, i have to pull back to stay level. Sounds logical to me... :joystick: That is not what is happening in game. Right, if you trim down you have to continously add more back pressure in order to keep your stick centered. But instead of staying level, your plane will nose down in 1.5. What is happening is that trimming is both adjusting your FFB stick forces, which is correct, AND moving your in-game controls center position, which is wrong. It seems that FFB trim forces are added in addition to the non-FFB joystick trim logic, instead of replacing it. Interestingly this was working correctly upon the MiG's release but has been broken in some patch and is now wrong ever since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted December 5, 2015 Author Share Posted December 5, 2015 Force feedback trim and force feedback forces are not working in MiG-21 at the present. For the reference how it should work, try flying the Su-27, there you can see how Force Feedback stick behaves while trimming the aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugong Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Any update on this, is it being looked at or worked on? It seems as if there are still no force feedback features implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted December 13, 2015 Author Share Posted December 13, 2015 Update: Since 1.5.2 the trim works like in Su-27 with force feedback sticks. It is awesome! Thank you... Now if only we could get full force feedback support for MiG-21....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1.JaVA_Platypus Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 IIRC, writing force-feedback isn't that hard. I toyed with it a long time ago. But since I got the Warthog, I haven't really done anything with it. Happy Flying! :pilotfly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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