DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[Hummingbird]

But See Thats a completly different discussion for me =P

 

But i was never talking about a VS scenario but what aircraft where the most similar.

 

In a VS Scenario they would be very closely matched and pilots and tactics would make the difference.

 

And about the AJ 37 and Tornado.

 

They are very similar in that they do.

 

But in some ways its closer to the tornado then those others.

 

But i tend not to compare it with the Tornado because the Tornado is a heavier more expensive 2 seat aircraft.

 

With significantly heavier payload and more focus on the interdiction focus

and also being more difficult and expensive to maintain.

 

And as such it had a different design philosophy for doing the same jobs.

 

For those reasons i tend to lean towards the AJ 37 being closer to the Su-17/22.

 

But it does have many similarities with the Tornado

 

(including having separate strike and fighter variants)

 

But the AJ 37 - Tornado might not have been the best comparison but was the best i could think off at such short notice xD.

 

But the AJ-37 is still probably closer to the Su-17/22 in its role / design philosophy.

 

Well IMO you're thinking abit too much about size, cost and desgin philosophy (eventhough I see great differences in design philosophy between the F-5 & MiG) rather than similarity in capability in the diferent roles.

 

To give you an example if we concentrate just on the air to air role then the F-4E, F-8E & AJ 37 are all a better match for the MiG-21Bis than the F-5E. The only real difference is that the F-4E & AJ 37 are also capable strike aircraft on top (The AJ 37 having it as a primary role), but that doesn't make them any less comparable to the MiG in the air to air role, which after all is what people usually are looking for when talking about matching adversaries.

 

That's my view :)

Edited February 22, 2016 by Hummingbird

[hughlb]

 

Whilst I wasn't alive when this commercial first aired, I remember seeing it during the 1990's, and reacting with a mixture of awe and genuine fear. The image of this strange shape rearing up like a cobra, it's underside black, swallowing the camera frame and indeed the car. It was otherworldly, and I don't think anything other than a Viggen could provoke that kind of response. I didn't know what a Viggen was back then, but that image has stuck with me for more than twenty years.

 

Tony Scott's eye for shooting dynamic objects in film, like aircraft, was so well captured by this ad, and then Top Gun a few years later. Maybe I'll have a go at replicating this in DCS in a few months :)

 

 

Edited February 22, 2016 by hughlb

[streakeagle]

Draken, Viggen, Gripen... all very beautiful looking aircraft.

Saab cars? Not so much.

[mattebubben]

Draken, Viggen, Gripen... all very beautiful looking aircraft.

Saab cars? Not so much.

 

 

 

:smilewink:

[Hummingbird]

The Draken would be so awesome:

 

Seems like a really agile fighter.

[mattebubben]

[ame]

[/ame]

 

the manuvering starts around 1:50

[mattebubben]

Well IMO you're thinking abit too much about size, cost and desgin philosophy (eventhough I see great differences in design philosophy between the F-5 & MiG) rather than similarity in capability in the diferent roles.

 

To give you an example if we concentrate just on the air to air role then the F-4E, F-8E & AJ 37 are all a better match for the MiG-21Bis than the F-5E. The only real difference is that the F-4E & AJ 37 are also capable strike aircraft on top (The AJ 37 having it as a primary role), but that doesn't make them any less comparable to the MiG in the air to air role, which after all is what people usually are looking for when talking about matching adversaries.

 

That's my view :)

 

Sure but my view is that just because the AJ 37 might have comparable air-air performance with a Mig-21Bis that does not make them Comparable aircraft.

 

Since they are still very much 2 different types of aircraft.

 

Just like the F-4E and the Mig-21 are very different aircraft and a F-16 and Su-27 are very different aircraft.

 

Does not mean that they cant be compared just that they are not as comparable with eachother as an aircraft of a similar role rould be.

 

For example one can compare a F-16 and Su-27.

 

But since they are different classes of aircraft a closer (/more proper) comparison would be the F-16 and Mig-29 or F-15 and Su-27.

 

Does not mean you cant compare the aircraft performance wise just that they are not as similar as a aircraft of the same class.

Edited February 22, 2016 by mattebubben

[Farlander]

These comparisons are taking it too far..

[mattebubben]

Sorry for the rants =P.

 

Lets get back on topic and the AJS 37.

 

Is there any confirmation that the RBS 15F will be included?

 

Since it would bring a significant boost to the Anti ship abillity.

 

While the RB 04E was not a bad missile and was good for its day.

 

But when it comes down to it the RB 04 was a 1960s missile with the RB 04E being a 1970s upgrade variant.

 

While the RBS 15F was and remains a very modern anti ship missile.

(though the 15F had been replaced by later variants of the RBS 15)

 

the RBS 15F was the Air launched Variant of the RBS 15 MK1 missile.

 

And the MK1 has since been replaced by the MK 2 and now MK 3 variants (all of whom had both gound/ship launched aswell as airlaunched variants)

 

the MK 3 added Air-Ground capabillities ontop of the Anti ship mission (but since the Viggen only used the MK 1 RBS 15F it will only be a anti ship mission)

 

a Saab Commercial for the that focuses on the RBS-15 to a large degree.

[ame]

[/ame]

 

Its mostly about the operation of the ground launched missile but the air-launched missile works in the same way.

Edited February 22, 2016 by mattebubben

[Skjold]

Is there any confirmation that the RBS 15F will be included?.

 

 

Advanced ASSM sea-skimming missiles (RB-15F & RB-04)

 

Source: Cobra's New Years Eve Update.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Skjold

[T0x1s]

What is the main difference between the RB-04E and RBS-15F? :)

[Goblin]

What is the main difference between the RB-04E and RBS-15F? :)

 

THE main difference..? Totally different missiles... ;)

[theOden]

What is the main difference between the RB-04E and RBS-15F? :)

 

Rb 04E is a Solid Fuel Rocket with some 32km range and the 15F has a turbofan giving it 5 brazillion km range (or some 100-200km rather depending on MkI/II/III - I could be wrong on these typing out of memory but you get the picture)

 

Even the older Rb 04 had frequency agile (hopping) radar making it quite awesome for its time.

[mattebubben]

What is the main difference between the RB-04E and RBS-15F? :)

 

Yea its a brand new missile.

 

one is 1970s tech and one is 1990s tech.

 

the RBS 15F has much longer range a much better seeker that is able to identify between different kinds of targets aswell as differentiate between ships and islands.

 

Where as the RB 04E simply went for the first thing the seeker got a long on nevermind if it was a large enough ship or a small island.

 

the RBS 15F is more advanced overall.

 

And has a preprogrammed flightpath .

 

So you can program its designated route before launch.

 

You can also specify the target it should look for (for example if you know there is a enemy carrier in a group of ships you can see it to disregard smaller ships and focus on the carrier)

 

And with the pre Programmed flightpath / Alitude the missile will follow waypoints untill it reaches the last point at wich time it will enter seaskimming mode flying a few meters above the water at the same time as it turns on the seeker as starts to look for the target.

 

And when it finds a target it will lock on and begin the attack phase.

 

 

But on the note of weapons.

 

Ive done some more reading on the gunpods.

 

The Gunpod carried the Aden cannon firing the 30×113mm round

(50s nato standard caliber) So its a weaker shell then the 30mm used by the russian aircaft and is the same shell as used in the Mirage 2000.

 

There is one in each gunpod and from what i have found so far it has 150 rounds per gunpod.

 

And while those rounds are no tank killers they should be more then enough for soft targets and flying targets.

 

Light armor will most likely be vulnerable as well depending on the attack angle.

 

The main reason for going with the 30mm aden for the gunpod is the facts sweden had a large number of them.

 

They had been used on J32 lansen aswell as the Hawker hunters bought from britain.

 

And as both those aircraft carried 4 each sweden had hundreds of Aden cannons avaliable after those aircraft had been retired.

 

And as such it was picked for the gunpod that would be used by the viggen since the guns and ammo was already there instead of adopting a new gun /ammo.

 

And since the Gun was not seen as the most important weapon the 30mm Aden was seen as good enough.

[amb]

I don't mean to argue against anything anyone said here about the RB 15F being an almost entirely new missile, but I was reading this page a couple of days ago that seems to hint that at least a part of the reason that it was named RB 15 instead of RB 04 T was for marketing/appearance reasons.

 

http://www.robotmuseum.se/Mappar/0E/Robothistorik/04_Saab_exp/ARM_RB04.htm

 

Just thought it was interesting.

[amb]

Well from the pilot reports ive heard they found it to be very accurate.

 

And also you need to remember the RB 05 is not really a anti tank weapon (even if it can be used as one to good effect if you hit)

 

It was mostly supposed to be used against structured etc.

 

One mission ive heard it was supposed to be used for was bridge busting.

 

Sweden is full of rivers and lakes.

 

And as such knocking out bridges would be an effective way of slowing down an enemy.

 

And while it was the Infantry engineers task to blow important bridges (if forced to retreat) the AJ 37 would have been used to knock a bridge out if the engineers had been unable to destroy it in time.

 

But More importantly then the destroying the old bridges it would have been used to stop the russians from building new bridges once the original bridges had been blown.

 

And that was a duty that the RB 05 and its 160kg warhead could have done a decent job off.

 

And since a Bridge is a large and immobile object it would have been easy to hit.

 

And in theory the RB 05 had a decent range (up to 9km but seeing as the pilot had to keep visual with the target and missile that makes it more limited =P)

 

But the pilots i talked to called it a silver bullet as it rarely missed (if the pilot knew what he was doing)

 

It was a lot less liked by the ground crew though ^^ as the propellant was toxic they did not like to handle the stuff ^^.

 

Interesting, thanks! I'm even more interested in seeing what it will be like to use it in game now. It just seems to me that in order to steer this thing with any sort of accuracy you would have to get so close to the target that you might as well use a large rocket, something like the russian S-24, or a bomb. But I could be completely wrong, and I hope that I am :)

[Enduro14]

Any updates on the Viggen?

[mattebubben]

I don't mean to argue against anything anyone said here about the RB 15F being an almost entirely new missile, but I was reading this page a couple of days ago that seems to hint that at least a part of the reason that it was named RB 15 instead of RB 04 T was for marketing/appearance reasons.

 

http://www.robotmuseum.se/Mappar/0E/Robothistorik/04_Saab_exp/ARM_RB04.htm

 

Just thought it was interesting.

 

It started as a project to build upon the RB 04 and what sweden had learned from it.

 

But it is a brand new missile as it does not really share any components with the old weapon.

 

But it still kept the RB 04 of the old anti ship missile family for the first part before it was changed.

 

And part of the reason that the name was changed was to prove it was a brand new weapon and just not a new variant.

 

As an example lets use the Aim-9X.

 

The Aim-9X is a brand new design and shares pretty much nothing with the older Aim-9 missiles.

 

But they kept the Aim-9 name as its filling the same missions and that the sidewinder is a very well know name.

 

But its still a brand new weapon and might as well have had a new designation.

 

For the RB 15 the RB 04T name was a hinderence as some ppl did not look further then the name and thus thought it was only a improvement of an older weapon instead of a brand new weapon system.

 

The RB 15 has a new seeker a new propulsion system a new body new internal navigation systems and pretty much all components are changed.

 

And the name was changed to the new designation to make that fact more obvious to some ppl.

[T0x1s]

Thanks for the info guys :)

 

THE main difference..? Totally different missiles... ;)

 

Haha yea I know but I thought they were kinda similar because of their anti ship function and how they operate but I was wondering about stuff like, how the targeting works

Edited February 22, 2016 by T0x1s

[mattebubben]

Thanks for the info guys :)

 

 

 

Haha yea I know but I thought they were kinda similar because of their anti ship function and how they operate but I was wondering about stuff like, how the targeting works

 

well as i stated in one of the previous post the RBS 15F was much more advanced and allowed for better accuracy longer range you could use it from anywhere (could launch if over land and would then follow the pre planned route to the target)

 

And it was usable between islands and with ground backdrop (if the ship was in a port for example with cliffs behind it the RBS 15 could still target it)

 

But the RB 04 on the other hand.

 

When launched the seeker would be turned on and if it saw anything that the seeker thought was a ship it would head for it.

 

With Ocean as a backdrop it had no problems but it was not as smart as the RBS 15 when it came differentiating between ships and islands etc.

 

The RB 04 might have been easier to use since you could just launch it towards a target and it would find it with its seeker and attack.

 

And i dont know if that was possible with the RB 15 (using it without pre programmed routes but just maddog it towards enemy ships)

 

Its very possible that it was an option but i dont know.

[ShadoWw]

Here's a video of me flying the Ajs37 viggen simulator at Fd, F15 Hälsinge flygflottilj. Located in Söderhamn Sweden.

 

I work there on weekends and during summer break from school as a instructor but mainly handling the computers needed to run this sim. This video was recorded after closing after all the customers had left just days after it's official release, flying with only Airspeed indicator, G and AOA as help.

 

Now all of the main gauges and some basic weapon systems are operational and most of the backup ones, the HUD do work but needs some fine tuning before it can be used properly, it is displayed through the glass of the cockpit and not on the screen in front of you like most sims

 

 

[ame=

]

[/ame]

[T0x1s]

well as i stated in one of the previous post the RBS 15F was much more advanced and allowed for better accuracy longer range you could use it from anywhere (could launch if over land and would then follow the pre planned route to the target)

 

And it was usable between islands and with ground backdrop (if the ship was in a port for example with cliffs behind it the RBS 15 could still target it)

 

But the RB 04 on the other hand.

 

When launched the seeker would be turned on and if it saw anything that the seeker thought was a ship it would head for it.

 

With Ocean as a backdrop it had no problems but it was not as smart as the RBS 15 when it came differentiating between ships and islands etc.

 

The RB 04 might have been easier to use since you could just launch it towards a target and it would find it with its seeker and attack.

 

And i dont know if that was possible with the RB 15 (using it without pre programmed routes but just maddog it towards enemy ships)

 

Its very possible that it was an option but i dont know.

 

Thanks for the info :)

[RaXha]

For those of you interested in seeing a real life flying AJS-37, the operators of the only flying specimen just posted their schedule for this years airshow season! The page is in Swedish but it's not really rocket science to understand the schedule itself. :P

 

SwAFHF Schedule

 

They will be attending UK, Irish, Swedish, Austrian, Czech, Belgian and Polish shows this year! Plenty of opportunity for the european members of this community to see a real life Viggen! As a nice bonus the SK-35 Draken trainer will also attend most of the shows. :D

 

Edit: The "JA" at the very far right in the table means it has been confirmed to attend, the others are planned but not finally confirmed appearances.

Edited February 23, 2016 by RaXha

[El Hadji]

For those of you interested in seeing a real life flying AJS-37, the operators of the only flying specimen just posted their schedule for this years airshow season! The page is in Swedish but it's not really rocket science to understand the schedule itself. :P

 

SwAFHF Schedule

 

They will be attending UK, Irish, Swedish, Austrian, Czech, Belgian and Polish shows this year! Plenty of opportunity for the european members of this community to see a real life Viggen! As a nice bonus the SK-35 Draken trainer will also attend most of the shows. :D

 

Edit: The "JA" at the very far right in the table means it has been confirmed to attend, the others are planned but not finally confirmed appearances.

 

I posted a separate thread about it earlier so that this info won't get buried among RBS15 and Centralkalkylator discussions. :thumbup:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=161344

[nogano00]

Wow, if we actually get the Viggen, F-14, F-18c this year, this would be the best year in the history of DCS. Man I need to start saving up some money!!!!