Relative performance of the Mustang, the 109 and the 190

[Solty]

So many things are missing still. Balance is not real in WWII. War is and has always been about developing weapon systems to give you the edge against your enemy.

 

You also are over estimating the benefit of the higher boost of an aircraft cruising at high altitudes in an escort role.

 

You balance doesnt include, condition of the aircraft, skill of the pilots, weather, time of day, on and on. I dont fly DCS for a balanced game, I fly DCS for a simulation of WWII aircraft. Fly Air Quake is not a WWII experience for me, and I wont judge the aircraft we have based on that.

 

I never want to see ED balancing their sim based on most of the factors you listed.

And you are missing the point. All I want to say is that higher 72'hg rating would bring both balance and historical accuracy to the engagement. They are tied together.

[Hiromachi]

I fly DCS for a simulation of WWII aircraft. Fly Air Quake is not a WWII experience for me, and I wont judge the aircraft we have based on that.

 

I never want to see ED balancing their sim based on most of the factors you listed.

 

I dont want to spoil anyone's fun, I can see why you or other people can enjoy flying in current environment. But DCS is currently Air Quake, with complete lack of any assets, historical maps and AI aircraft to recreate actual battlefields. My experience from flying ACG or some other servers is that there are no ground targets, no missions specified and all that is given is team deathmatch with airfields 30-50 km away, so before even any side reaches decent altitude the combat begins.

 

You are using historical accuracy as an argument. Yet I wonder what accuracy you are talking about ? Normandy was used as a background for all those released modules, yet they have nothing to do with it.

Firstly, because there was little to no air combat during the D-day, there was a lot of ground support missions with thousands of sorties flown by P-47s, Typhoons and so on ...

Secondly, because none of the modules matches the given theater. I cant recall any Luftwaffe units operating 109 K-4 or 190 D-9 over the beaches of Normandy. As a matter of fact even the existing ingame P-51 D variant was not present there.

 

I dont understand what exactly ED tried to achieve with big Normandy advertising and then releasing the modules unrelated to it. That's not a historical accuracy and its far from any kind of immersion you are talking about. Because that accuracy went out of the window long ago ...

 

Now with all my respect to you Sithspawn, but what kind of issue do you have with P-51 D operating at higher ratings. A historical ratings. It is a fact that P-51 operated at higher than given currently in game boost ratings over Normandy. So what exactly is the problem with the 72"Hg ?

Solty looks for balance, which has some logic behind.

You talk about accuracy.

 

There is no contradiction between you here as a matter of fact. Reconsidering 72"Hg or 75"Hg can both achieve balance and be historically accurate.

[Foul Ole Ron]

I never want to see ED balancing their sim based on most of the factors you listed.

 

That's all well and good but as a commercial entity there's a long term benefit to ED considering things like a 72" Mustang. The MP aspect to DCS WW2 hasn't really taken off yet due to a number of factors but once things like dedicated servers come along there should be a good bump. Having a balanced historical match-up is good for keeping the MP punters buying planes. I get that the actual difference between the a 67" and a 72" might not be all that much in reality but perceptions come into play and they can be hard to shake.

 

So while you might not really care if your Mustang is 67" or 72" and would buy either anyway it might put off a portion of the playerbase as they'll feel disadvantaged. You mightn't agree with their decision as you play for different reasons but at the end of the day their $50 is the same as your $50. I'm probably in between - I'd buy either way but when playing online MP I like things to be balanced.

 

I get that the Mustang was made by ED first for different reasons and they can't constantly revise old models as it's not the most commercially viable thing to do but hopefully this is in their thinking when it comes to future models.

[NineLine]

And you are missing the point. All I want to say is that higher 72'hg rating would bring both balance and historical accuracy to the engagement. They are tied together.

 

And i am saying you are over estimating the value of 72'hg, and you are not balancing historically you are trying to balance Air Quake.

[NineLine]

But DCS is currently Air Quake, with complete lack of any assets, historical maps and AI aircraft to recreate actual battlefields.

 

Which is in ED's plans to bring to us. SO making changes to the game to support anything but that is not necessarily helpful.

[NineLine]

I have talked to Yo-Yo about the 72", so dont assume I am just blowing you guys off because I dont care, or whatever. But as its explained to me, it really isnt a silver bullet that will magically even the play-field. So as I said, you guys might be overvaluing this change.

 

Fuel types and such will be looked at eventually, so might this, its just not a priority right now.

 

That's all well and good but as a commercial entity there's a long term benefit to ED considering things like a 72" Mustang. The MP aspect to DCS WW2 hasn't really taken off yet due to a number of factors but once things like dedicated servers come along there should be a good bump. Having a balanced historical match-up is good for keeping the MP punters buying planes. I get that the actual difference between the a 67" and a 72" might not be all that much in reality but perceptions come into play and they can be hard to shake.

 

So while you might not really care if your Mustang is 67" or 72" and would buy either anyway it might put off a portion of the playerbase as they'll feel disadvantaged. You mightn't agree with their decision as you play for different reasons but at the end of the day their $50 is the same as your $50. I'm probably in between - I'd buy either way but when playing online MP I like things to be balanced.

 

I get that the Mustang was made by ED first for different reasons and they can't constantly revise old models as it's not the most commercially viable thing to do but hopefully this is in their thinking when it comes to future models.

[Hiromachi]

But it will be historically accurate. I am not as much concerned about performance but it is documented that such boost was a normal thing at that time for that area of operations.

It's ED that decided to introduce us to Normandy. So it would be logical that developer will remain consistent and aircraft will perform like they did at that time and area of operations.

[NineLine]

But it will be historically accurate. I am not as much concerned about performance but it is documented that such boost was a normal thing at that time for that area of operations.

It's ED that decided to introduce us to Normandy. So it would be logical that developer will remain consistent and aircraft will perform like they did at that time and area of operations.

 

It is also documented without that boost, which is also historically accurate. So what now?

[Hiromachi]

It is also documented without that boost, which is also historically accurate. So what now?

 

It's also documented that no 109 K-4 and FW 190 D-9 were present over beaches of Normandy. So what now ?

 

We can reverse the logic and play like that forever. But you know Sithspawn that I am right.

[NineLine]

It's also documented that no 109 K-4 and FW 190 D-9 were present over beaches of Normandy. So what now ?

 

We can reverse the logic and play like that forever. But you know Sithspawn that I am right.

 

You are not right, you are just not wrong. Nobody here, no matter what they say, wants the 72" for historical accuracy, they want it because the are getting whipped up on by 109's and the believe that will fix it. I am telling you... not so much as you might think.

 

The Normandy thing? You have someone else to thank for that. I would have preferred something a little deeper into Europe after Normandy.

Edited February 17, 2016 by NineLine

[jorelomlgprof16portugal]

You are not right, you are just not wrong. Nobody here, no matter what they say, wants the 72" for historical accuracy, they want it because the are getting whipped up on by 109's and the believe that will fix it. I am telling you... not so much as you might think.

 

The Normandy thing? You have someone else to thank for that. I would have preferred something a little deeper into Europe after Normandy.

 

The 72" boost actualy makes a big difrence , in acceleration and max speed.

The In game our P51D doesn't hold almost any advantage over the 109 K4.

[Solty]

I don't think you should judge us like that Sith. If I wanted to just "win" I would just fly 109K4 like everyone else did and win. Don't you think? The reason why I fly P-51 is that it is my favourite plane of all time, and I know its history and its capabilities. If I was just an average man wanting a superior plane, I would probably ask for P-51H.

 

72'hg most certainly won't be a silver bullet. But it will give the P-51D a fighting chance. And that is all is needed. A chance to utilise it's speed. It is an aircraft defined by it's speed. Since the very begining the plane was very fast even with lower power settings and Allison engine.

 

First P-51 in UK's arsenal was using an Alison engine with lower power than Spitfire MkV. And the Mustang MK1 while beeing heavier and bigger and having a weaker engine, was still faster than the Spitfire MkV.

 

Who love's a P-51 knows that it's main thing is speed. Even in versions that were not focused around range.

 

The P-51D is not a good dogfighter, but it is constantly pushed to dogfight other more nimble oponents. I am not going to pretend that it will magically outturn, outaccelerate and outrun the 109K4 when it will get 72'hg. But it will be just that a bit faster, which will give you a fighting chance.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Solty

[NineLine]

The 72" boost actualy makes a big difrence , in acceleration and max speed.

The In game our P51D doesn't hold almost any advantage over the 109 K4.

 

Define 'big difference'

[jorelomlgprof16portugal]

Define 'big difference'

 

have a atvantage over the 109 K4

[NineLine]

have a atvantage over the 109 K4

 

It wont, not from what I have been told.

 

And lets all remember, I never said it would never happen, I said it just isnt a priority right now.

Edited February 17, 2016 by NineLine

[RoflSeal]

Define 'big difference'

 

About 120hp difference in max power

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/V-1650-3_7_power_curve.jpg

[NineLine]

About 120hp difference in max power

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/V-1650-3_7_power_curve.jpg

 

Which generally only made a difference at lower altitudes, mid to higher altitudes, not so much.

[Terribletwo]

Wow, I was warned about this place before registering, and boy were they right....

 

Balance is what we need, PERIOD. Concerning multiplayer, it should be pilot skill vs pilot skill, and be sure to realistically match the aircraft so each pilot has an assortment of realistic tools at his disposal.

 

As far as historical is concerned, what is the criteria for something to be "historical"? If one P51 had 75" manifold then does that make it historical? Do youneed to P51's? If not, what about 10 P51's. What if a rebel mechanic decided his pilot wanted 81" - should we model that since there was at least one P51 with that high of pressure?

 

The point I am making is that "historical" only matters to a point, because ANYTHING is nearly possible as far as history goes. There's always gonna be one pilot who tweaked his rig more than another... Is that then considered historical??

 

No, what we need is balance. PERIOD. Otherwise, nobody will play online.

[NineLine]

You aren't going to get it, because balance never existed in real life. Show me two aircraft that were a perfect match... you cant because there are too many factors to be able to do that, not least of which is pilot skill. If you want balance like that, have P-51 vs P-51 fights... oh and you will need to clone yourself and make sure the pilots are the same as well.

 

As for the comment about being warned about this place? You can keep those to yourself, they don't forward the discussion at all.

 

Wow, I was warned about this place before registering, and boy were they right....

 

Balance is what we need, PERIOD. Concerning multiplayer, it should be pilot skill vs pilot skill, and be sure to realistically match the aircraft so each pilot has an assortment of realistic tools at his disposal.

 

As far as historical is concerned, what is the criteria for something to be "historical"? If one P51 had 75" manifold then does that make it historical? Do youneed to P51's? If not, what about 10 P51's. What if a rebel mechanic decided his pilot wanted 81" - should we model that since there was at least one P51 with that high of pressure?

 

The point I am making is that "historical" only matters to a point, because ANYTHING is nearly possible as far as history goes. There's always gonna be one pilot who tweaked his rig more than another... Is that then considered historical??

 

No, what we need is balance.

[RoflSeal]

Which generally only made a difference at lower altitudes, mid to higher altitudes, not so much.

 

Made a difference 0-3000(up to 11000ft RAM) in the first stage and 8000-22000 (up to 27000ft RAM) in 2nd stage.

 

Considering ingame battles take place below 6000ft, I regard it as quite a difference.

[NineLine]

Made a difference 0-3000(up to 11000ft RAM) in the first stage and 8000-22000 (up to 27000ft RAM) in 2nd stage.

 

Considering ingame battles take place below 6000ft, I regard it as quite a difference.

 

Yet the 109K will most likely still out perform you, what then?

[RoflSeal]

Yet the 109K will most likely still out perform you, what then?

 

[NineLine]

 

You are correct, I dont see you point at all... you want something that probably wont help you at all. Yes, let me stop Yo-Yo from working on the Spit and Jug and get on that...

[RoflSeal]

You are correct, I dont see you point at all... you want something that probably wont help you at all. Yes, let me stop Yo-Yo from working on the Spit and Jug and get on that...

 

I honestly don't know how you can say 120 extra horsepower, especially at the altitudes ingame, can not help, with a straight face.

[NineLine]

I honestly don't know how you can say 120 extra horsepower, especially at the altitudes ingame, can not help, with a straight face.

 

And again, as we come full circle once more, ED isnt designing an Air Quake game, there are other options out there for that type of fight. ED's goal is beyond that.