Virtual reality headsets: Only of use when experienced with a module? mouse&keyboard?

[cichlidfan]

As an aside, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when typists worked on manual typewriters they used to take a hand off the keys to operate the old carriage return. They were still able to touch-type. Experience, that's how.

 

Actually, I think the fact that the 'f' and 'j' keys are generally made so that they are easily distinguishable by touch, might have a wee bit to do with that, as well. ;)

[FeistyLemur]

Actually, I think the fact that the 'f' and 'j' keys are generally made so that they are easily distinguishable by touch, might have a wee bit to do with that, as well. ;)

 

Ok, well you keyboard ninjas that can press ctrl left win pg-up or some other crazy double modifier with your eyes closed, in under half a second, and with zero peripheral vision to even orient your hand from the controller to the keyboard can keep living that illusion.

Edited March 5, 2016 by FeistyLemur

[Frusheen]

Ok, well you keyboard ninjas that can press ctrl left win pg-up or some other crazy double modifier with your eyes closed, in under half a second, and with zero peripheral vision to even orient your hand from the controller to the keyboard can keep living that illusion.

 

I think a lot of us who have tried VR and been converted tend to overlook the drawbacks. I'm a convert since I first got my DK1 many years ago but I agree there are huge disadvantages to using a keyboard in VR. The key is to find ways not to have to use it. That's the next logical step after the hmd. Bringing our hands into VR and providing haptic feedback for switches and buttons in the 3D cockpit.

[Frusheen]

Here's a basic example of where we are going:

 

 

I don't think it will be the leap motion controller but it will be similar.

[Vedexent]

So your solution is I take both hands off my controls, orient them to my keyboard by looking for the f and j, the keyboard is also in front of my stick mounted vertically I might add.

 

Um no, and if you say you can press random 2 modifier combos in a "split second" with accuracy, with your eyes closed, Then ok Batman.

 

No - my solution is that you don't use the keyboard at all - which is obvious if you read the rest of the post.

 

My point is that you can use a keyboard without seeing it, for minor things, if you really want to.

 

If 'split second' is important, map it to the HOTAS.

 

Aaaand ... you can't mount your keyboard in an unusable position (really? vertically?) and then claim that's evidence keyboards are unusable. That's kind of like me setting my house on fire and then claiming that houses are useless as dwellings, since they're inherently flammable and burn down :P

[FeistyLemur]

I think a lot of us who have tried VR and been converted tend to overlook the drawbacks. I'm a convert since I first got my DK1 many years ago but I agree there are huge disadvantages to using a keyboard in VR. The key is to find ways not to have to use it. That's the next logical step after the hmd. Bringing our hands into VR and providing haptic feedback for switches and buttons in the 3D cockpit.

 

I appreciate that you're one of the few people that seems to be realistic about the advantages and drawbacks of VR headsets.

 

It's been an idea ahead of it's time every time it's been tried so far. I think it's going to be great like you say, when haptic feedback is involved and motion control actually works well. I also think the resolution race needs to advance a bit more. Once everyone can run 4k resolutions like it's no big thing it has a lot more of a chance to take off. But I have a titan X and a pretty decent system and I still doubt I can put out enough framerate 100% of the time at the detail settings I like to use in dcs. Maybe Pascal will solve that problem sooner rather than later. But probably not in the mainstream. It's still going to be the 1000 dollar plus cards being needed.

 

It obviously has to start somewhere to drive the advancements in the field, I'm hesitant to pay 1000 bucks cad to be part of the first generation though.

[Vedexent]

Have you actually tried a VR headset?

[FeistyLemur]

No - my solution is that you don't use the keyboard at all - which is obvious if you read the rest of the post.

 

My point is that you can use a keyboard without seeing it, for minor things, if you really want to.

 

If 'split second' is important, map it to the HOTAS.

 

Aaaand ... you can't mount your keyboard in an unusable position (really? vertically?) and then claim that's evidence keyboards are unusable. That's kind of like me setting my house on fire and then claiming that houses are useless as dwellings, since they're inherently flammable and burn down :P

 

Well, as it happens I have an ergotron mount coming to mount a second keyboard on. When it arrives it will sit vertically and directly in front of my left hand which sits on the throttle. It still won't be suitable for quickly orienting your fingers to in a natural typing position.

 

And no, I don't have a good place to mount a keyboard because my stick is center mounted on a wheel stand pro. My stick is directly in front of me, and the keyboard is directly in front of it. There is no way for me to reach the keyboard comfortably without standing it vertically. I already have my seating position placed with the edge of the seat practically touching the post that the stick sits on. and I have the stick sitting where in full forward deflection the nose of it is almost touching the edge of the desk. I can't get any closer than that. So I have to lean forward considerably to reach the keyboard unless I stand it vertically like a panel. Sitting the keyboard in my lap is unworkable. The stick hits a lap held keyboard in full rear deflection.

 

A hotas setup still does not have enough buttons to replace a keyboard totally for every single function. I have a TM warthog and a 15 switch panel. I'm not replacing every possible keyboard command I might want to use with it. I'm not going to remap all the view keys for example to to the hotas. Or the scoreboard, or the multiplayer chat window controls.

 

You basically sound like you just want an excuse to crow about your typing abilities to be honest.

[Frusheen]

I appreciate that you're one of the few people that seems to be realistic about the advantages and drawbacks of VR headsets.

 

It's been an idea ahead of it's time every time it's been tried so far. I think it's going to be great like you say, when haptic feedback is involved and motion control actually works well. I also think the resolution race needs to advance a bit more. Once everyone can run 4k resolutions like it's no big thing it has a lot more of a chance to take off. But I have a titan X and a pretty decent system and I still doubt I can put out enough framerate 100% of the time at the detail settings I like to use in dcs. Maybe Pascal will solve that problem sooner rather than later. But probably not in the mainstream. It's still going to be the 1000 dollar plus cards being needed.

 

It obviously has to start somewhere to drive the advancements in the field, I'm hesitant to pay 1000 bucks cad to be part of the first generation though.

 

Better resolution is a kind of chicken and egg thing at the moment. I think both Oculus and HTC could have gone with higher res but chose not too. There's no point having the resolution without having the horse power to drive it. That's why I think GearVR and Google cardboard etc are a fantastic addition to the market. In order for red and green to give us improved rendering performance and things like gameworksVR and liquidVR we need mass market adoption this time around. GearVR and its like can provide that. If it was just a small bunch of PC gamers with dev kits that were pushing vr we would never have reached the point where we are now. There are other things on the way such as eye tracking and foveated rendering which will lower the bar for 4K vr a bit as well. The problem DCS developers face is the game was never designed with vr in mind. The performance threshold will be higher in DCS than it is for games designed for vr from the outset.

 

I'm unsure how good the res of the consumer headsets will be in DCS. Just a few more weeks until I find out though. :)

[Enduro14]

Real pilots were trained to find all the switches, and levers blindfolded. You will have no problem with a little practice. The immersion level of VR will give you the impetus to make it happen.

 

Fact, and it was all doable in the DK2 will only be easier with the first official releases from both Companies.

[wormeaten]

Better resolution is a kind of chicken and egg thing at the moment. I think both Oculus and HTC could have gone with higher res but chose not too. There's no point having the resolution without having the horse power to drive it. That's why I think GearVR and Google cardboard etc are a fantastic addition to the market. In order for red and green to give us improved rendering performance and things like gameworksVR and liquidVR we need mass market adoption this time around. GearVR and its like can provide that. If it was just a small bunch of PC gamers with dev kits that were pushing vr we would never have reached the point where we are now. There are other things on the way such as eye tracking and foveated rendering which will lower the bar for 4K vr a bit as well. The problem DCS developers face is the game was never designed with vr in mind. The performance threshold will be higher in DCS than it is for games designed for vr from the outset.

 

I'm unsure how good the res of the consumer headsets will be in DCS. Just a few more weeks until I find out though. :)

 

Resolution doesn't have nothing with it. Major issue for screendoor effect is PPI. For example DK2 have 1080p resolution and screen have around 400PPI.

If you run on GearVR with Samsung S6 which have screen who support 2560x1440 resolution (it is 1280x1440 per eye) and 530PPI and you run DCS on 1080p same resolution as DK2 max it is look much more better right because that difference in PPI. Other issue which effecting on sharpness and details is 3D which made picture more blured.

 

Instruments reading is not that much issue. Even on good monitors when you are in game fer from instruments you are not able to read it and you have to zoom in. But when you learn positions of gauges you know what speed or altitude is even without clear reading of numbers.

For me major backdraw is how good you will be able to spot the enemy on ground or in the air in the end. Everything what will give you disadvantage in PvP combat against those who flying on his good old trusty monitor will eventually force you to abandon your VR whot will be nothing else than another highly expensive worthless toy.

 

I'm interested in practical use of VR not occasional usage for showing up. So triple monitor set up is still respectable opponent.

[Frusheen]

Resolution doesn't have nothing with it. Major issue for screendoor effect is PPI. For example DK2 have 1080p resolution and screen have around 400PPI.

If you run on GearVR with Samsung S6 which have screen who support 2560x1440 resolution (it is 1280x1440 per eye) and 530PPI and you run DCS on 1080p same resolution as DK2 max it is look much more better right because that difference in PPI. Other issue which effecting on sharpness and details is 3D which made picture more blured.

 

Instruments reading is not that much issue. Even on good monitors when you are in game fer from instruments you are not able to read it and you have to zoom in. But when you learn positions of gauges you know what speed or altitude is even without clear reading of numbers.

For me major backdraw is how good you will be able to spot the enemy on ground or in the air in the end. Everything what will give you disadvantage in PvP combat against those who flying on his good old trusty monitor will eventually force you to abandon your VR whot will be nothing else than another highly expensive worthless toy.

 

I'm interested in practical use of VR not occasional usage for showing up. So triple monitor set up is still respectable opponent.

 

Screen door is all but eliminated on the consumer versions according to many reports. How can you discount resolution? Is there some other magic way to increase the PPI?

 

The more accurate number which needs to be measured is pixels per degree. This accounts for the lenses and the FOV of each headset. PPI is only part of the equation.

 

Of course you'll have an easier time spotting targets on a triple monitor setup. i never suggested anything different.

[hansangb]

-snip-

For me major backdraw is how good you will be able to spot the enemy on ground or in the air in the end. Everything what will give you disadvantage in PvP combat against those who flying on his good old trusty monitor will eventually force you to abandon your VR whot will be nothing else than another highly expensive worthless toy.

 

I'm interested in practical use of VR not occasional usage for showing up. So triple monitor set up is still respectable opponent.

 

 

wormeaten,

I take it you haven't tried VR? The situational awareness that you get from VR is light years ahead of monitors. It's black and white. You can't even begin to compare it with 3 monitors. Or any monitor size stuck in 2D.

 

And I'm curious why people seek the ultimate simulator except wen it comes to vision. IRL, how many of us have binocular vision? Isn't that why pilots carry binoculars (in some cases)?

[Enduro14]

wormeaten,

I take it you haven't tried VR? The situational awareness that you get from VR is light years ahead of monitors. It's black and white. You can't even begin to compare it with 3 monitors. Or any monitor size stuck in 2D.

 

And I'm curious why people seek the ultimate simulator except wen it comes to vision. IRL, how many of us have binocular vision? Isn't that why pilots carry binoculars (in some cases)?

 

Fact beyond all facts not just in that regards but even simple things like navigating the terrain contours

[hansangb]

That's very true Enduro14. Those of us who have experience reading maps (land nav, Infantry/Armor/Avaition) can appreciate the difficulty of translating 2D map to real terrains. But being able to look around and orient oneself in VR is exhilarating!

[Enduro14]

That's very true Enduro14. Those of us who have experience reading maps (land nav, Infantry/Armor/Avaition) can appreciate the difficulty of translating 2D map to real terrains. But being able to look around and orient oneself in VR is exhilarating!

 

Amen