F-22 will never be produced again...or will it? Sorta, with a twist.

[Pilotasso]

Interesting article:

 

http://www.combataircraft.net/view_article.asp?id=9498

 

So now the F-22 production cancelation over 7 years ago was recognized as a mistake. The USAF is scrambling to catch some ground lost, and manufacturers are proposing using a current fighter design as a starting point to cut down the development of a 6th gen design by using proven tech.

The likely candidate to go back to the drawing board is the F-22. Kinda saw that one coming.

[SkateZilla]

F-22B (Or Whatever Designation)

-Same Airframe Design

-Removed Thrust Vectoring Nozzles

-Replaced Cockpit Avionics with Modern Systems/Displays

-Replaced Engines

-Reduced Development Cost (Likely a majority of the Avionics will come from the F-35 Program)

[Pilotasso]

With those features it sounds more like a F-22E super-raptor.

[ФрогФут]

F-22B (Or Whatever Designation)

-Same Airframe Design

-Removed Thrust Vectoring Nozzles

-Replaced Cockpit Avionics with Modern Systems/Displays

-Replaced Engines

-Reduced Development Cost (Likely a majority of the Avionics will come from the F-35 Program)

Why would anyone do that?

[Pilotasso]

Its explained in the article.

 

Costly in maintenance, not to mention weight savings. You might argue if that's worth it. I don't know for sure, but they have to start somewhere to bring that 200mil price tag down.

 

A speed bump is also implied so its not like a downgrade. We will see.

[Vitormouraa]

Why would anyone do that?

 

This

[Vampyre]

I, like a lot of other people I know, said it was a mistake when I first heard they were going to cut production to 339 machines... and then they cut it again to 187. :doh: They should have purchased the full 750 examples in the original contract plus however many more congress would have forced upon them to keep production lines open after the order was fulfilled. Lets get our monies worth this time and get 750+ multirole F-22 aircraft and replace all of the F-15's including the Strike Eagles with them.

[Pilotasso]

The USAF is using 200+ F-15C's, so 300 machines would have been sufficient IMHO. 700+ an exaggeration, in all honesty the economy of scale in the plane was not THAT great. :)

[Vampyre]

The USAF is using 200+ F-15C's, so 300 machines would have been sufficient IMHO. 700+ an exaggeration, in all honesty the economy of scale in the plane was not THAT great. :)

 

I'm not talking one for one replacement. The whole reason this is an issue is because the leadership sees a new cold war brewing. 300 machines to replace existing airframes will not cover all of the contingencies. We need interceptors, battlefield air superiority and long range strike aircraft all of which we have low numbers of with the existing aircraft. Improved versions of the F-22 would be ideal for those mission sets.

[SkateZilla]

Removal of Thrust Vectoring would no Impact the Agility that much.

 

If anyone thinks that those Nozzles are the reason the F-22 is Agile, they are mistaken,

 

I've met several Raptor Pilots, and even they claim the TV Isn't important, as the "dogfighting" advantage it provides is situation specific and limited in duration, something that can be replaced by 360 Weapon Targeting.

 

Besides, Everything they do can be done with existing control surfaces and a upgraded FCS.

[Dudikoff]

Remove the TVC from the redesigned F-22? If maneuverability is not the key requirement anymore they might as well reuse the YF-23 design instead then.. :) It had lower RCS and was faster anyway IIRC?

[Rogue Trooper]

The F-22B sounds like it has the maneuverability of the YF-23 but is less stealthy, less weapon load, less speed and definitely not as sexy.:D

 

I guess now is the time to produce these birds whilst the global economy still favors the US.

 

sniped!!

[Vampyre]

Remove the TVC from the redesigned F-22? If maneuverability is not the key requirement anymore they might as well reuse the YF-23 design instead then.. :) It had lower RCS and was faster anyway IIRC?

 

The only problem with that idea is that the YF-23 is essentially a new design which, according to the article, is not what the Air Force wants to do.

[Hummingbird]

What they mean is very low speed extreme AoA maneuverability isn't really needed, it's mostly for show. It is of very limited use in a real dogfight.

[SDsc0rch]

what vampyre said plus.. the YF-23 could only carry three internal missiles in its weapon bay (one each side - one centerline) and the -22 has two larger weapons bays on each side

 

full disclosure - i was rooting for the -23 and was disappointed when the -22 was selected due to essentially politcal/program-mgmt reasons : /

[Vampyre]

full disclosure - i was rooting for the -23 and was disappointed when the -22 was selected due to essentially politcal/program-mgmt reasons : /

 

Same here

[Rogue Trooper]

+ 1

[SkateZilla]

F-22 would go because most of the tooling for the Airframes is already done and still in storage.

[Rogue Trooper]

for sure this is clear... I am dreaming of what could have been.

[SkateZilla]

Remove the TVC from the redesigned F-22? If maneuverability is not the key requirement anymore they might as well reuse the YF-23 design instead then.. :) It had lower RCS and was faster anyway IIRC?

 

The F-22B sounds like it has the maneuverability of the YF-23 but is less stealthy, less weapon load, less speed and definitely not as sexy.:D

 

I guess now is the time to produce these birds whilst the global economy still favors the US.

 

sniped!!

 

You are assuming the TV Nozzles are the source of it's maneuverability,

The Nozzles effect on roll Rate and Pitch performance can be replaced with coordinated control surface deflections used by an updated FCS.

 

You forget in the 80's, the new rage was Thrust Vectoring, in the 90s/2000's Thrust Vectoring has since been replaced by negative stability Airframes with Flight Control Computers to keep them stable.

[Rogue Trooper]

You are assuming the TV Nozzles are the source of it's maneuverability,

The Nozzles effect on roll Rate and Pitch performance can be replaced with coordinated control surface deflections used by an updated FCS.

 

You forget in the 80's, the new rage was Thrust Vectoring, in the 90s/2000's Thrust Vectoring has since been replaced by negative stability Airframes with Flight Control Computers to keep them stable.

 

I am assuming this...

I cannot seem to find any specific information on why the USAF judged the F22 to be more Manoeuverable than the 23 but it would be interesting to know it if you got it.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[Basher54321]

The Nozzles effect on roll Rate and Pitch performance can be replaced with coordinated control surface deflections used by an updated FCS.

 

You forget in the 80's, the new rage was Thrust Vectoring, in the 90s/2000's Thrust Vectoring has since been replaced by negative stability Airframes with Flight Control Computers to keep them stable.

 

A TV benefit on the F-22 is for reducing trim drag during supersonic manoeuvring where using conventional surfaces create more drag (even more so if F-22 loses its negative stability in this region).

It provides benefits in some areas but the value it adds has been deemed not worth the added weight at least twice now.

[SkateZilla]

YF-22 vs YF23

 

Flight Characteristics, they were close, YF-22 had a "Theoretical Edge" as well as the Promise of a NF-22 (Navalized F-22)

YF-22 had significant Pitch Authority Edge due to the TVN.

YF-23 was sleeker and had a good deal less drag, Faster and higher Roll Rate.

Both could SuperCruise by the military's definition. (Sustain Super Sonic Flight w/o Reheat).

 

Weapons, At the Time of Evaluation:

YF-22 had several Public Launches YF-23 Did not, in Fact YF-23 was still in "Simulator" stages for most of it's weapons deployment demonstration.

 

YF-22 Had More Internal Bay Space, and Could Carry ALOT more than the YF-23

 

Cockpit:

YF-22 had a Frameless Canopy, YF-23 Did not,

YF-22 used a New Cockpit Arrangement, YF-23 ported most of the F-15E Cockpit

 

 

Cost/Reliability:

TVN Were more Reliable and easier to maintain than YF-23's Engine Exhaust Cooling System.

 

Time Frame:

YF-23 Was First to Taxi, Fly and SuperCruise, that was it, the Avionics and Weapons systems were delayed,

YF-22 Quickly passed the YF-23 at that point.

 

When the time came YF-22 was Firing missiles live, and doing live demo's,

YF-23 was bringing officials into a simulator room for most of it's proposal.

 

 

Had Northop gone with the surfaced YF-23 EMD Design from the get go, things might have been different.

[Rogue Trooper]

Thanks skatezilla, what is EMD design?

[SkateZilla]

Thanks skatezilla, what is EMD design?

 

http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=360