DEFA 554 Stopping Power

[Custard]

Whilst I am of course aware that not all 30mms were created equal, surely I cannot be the only one that thinks the DEFA 554 is particularly anemic.

 

See the following example from a similar range against an identical target compared with the GSh-30-1.

 

[ame=https://a.pomf.cat/ecaxgw.webm]M2K[/ame] vs [ame=https://a.pomf.cat/nlsqod.webm]Su27[/ame]

Anyone care to comment?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Custard

[Jarama]

The DEFA is indeed a joke in it's current state. Hopefully it's not fully done yet.

 

Hopefully.

[Voodooflies]

The DEFA is indeed a joke in it's current state. Hopefully it's not fully done yet.

 

Hopefully.

 

+1.

[PiedDroit]

The topic has been discussed a bit already, you might find some additional info:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156771

 

P.S. Quick summary : DEFA round are much smaller than Gsh30's, also damage model against AI seem to be different than against player controlled aircraft

Edited April 6, 2016 by PiedDroit

[OperatorJack]

P.S. Quick summary : DEFA round are much smaller than Gsh30's, also damage model against AI seem to be different than against player controlled aircraft

 

That's not a great excuse for it though

[Custard]

The topic has been discussed a bit already, you might find some additional info:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156771

Appreciated, this post caught my attention for sure.

P.S. Quick summary : DEFA round are much smaller than Gsh30's, also damage model against AI seem to be different than against player controlled aircraft

I don't agree that a difference in the amount of propellant makes a huge difference to the stopping power of these A2A cannon rounds, they should still be punching plate-sized holes in the target. As for the underwhelming AI damage model, that doesn't excuse this behavior either. I even included the comparison shot with the Su-27 specifically to point out this wasn't an example of the MiG-15 being un-naturally durable in tanking 17 DEFA 554 hits.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Custard

[Darkwolf]

Mirage is 30mm-proof as well.... :P

[PiedDroit]

Appreciated, this post caught my attention for sure.

 

I don't agree that a difference in the amount of propellant makes a huge difference to the stopping power of these A2A cannon rounds, they should still be punching plate-sized holes in the target. As for the underwhelming AI damage model, that doesn't excuse this behavior either. I even included the comparison shot with the Su-27 specifically to point out this wasn't an example of the MiG-15 being un-naturally durable in tanking 17 DEFA 554 hits.

 

I don't know if the difference is huge or not ;)

There is one for sure.

I also find the round feels a bit unpowered, but I don't have any info that would tell it is realistic or not :cry:

That post about AP rounds is a good find, I forgot about it :thumbup:

[rrohde]

+1

[mattebubben]

The DEFA is Definitely underpowerd atm.

 

Here is some combat guncam footage from Israeli Mirage IIIs.

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

It has both Air-Ground Aswell as Air-Air examples.

 

The Air Combat starts after 4:46

 

The Mirage III (and all Mirage jet fighters) use the same DEFA 30mm cannon.

 

And the Guns where proved to be very effective and only needing a few hits for a kill.

 

And while the video is not super clear (not suprising as its a 1960s guncam) it shows plenty evidence for how quick and deadly the kills were.

 

While if you try to kill a Mig-21 with the guns on the Mirage 2000C it will soak up huge amount of rounds.

 

This video also has some of the same guncam kills but at a reduced speed so its easier to see what happens.

 

With the first few kills being Mirage III but most others being F-16 or F-15.

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

And there are plenty of accounts from Israeli Mirage III pilots on the effectiveness of the cannons.

 

Including some accounts / animations on the Dogfights show.

Edited April 6, 2016 by mattebubben

[Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson]

 

While if you try to kill a Mig-21 with the guns on the Mirage 2000C it will soak up huge amount of rounds.

 

 

Ahh, thats why those Su-25 seems indestructibles to my 30mm canons yesterday...

[mattebubben]

Ahh, thats why those Su-25 seems indestructibles to my 30mm canons yesterday...

 

Ive had incidents against Mig-21s where i have counted 20+ cannon hits and the aircraft is still flying.

 

Including 5+ hits on elevators / rudder without any significant damage.

 

While in reality one or two hits would shear a elevator right off or even the entire tail section. (on a mig-21)

 

So yea the gun very much needs a work over.

[PiedDroit]

The DEFA is Definitely underpowerd atm.

 

Here is some combat guncam footage from Israeli Mirage IIIs.

I remember those, it looks like the targets are bursting into fireballs.

Currently in DCS it looks like there is no incendiary effect, it looks like damage is done through kinetic and explosive power (not only Mirage's gun).

I suspect that the DEFA has inferior kinetic stats (in the game) which leads to less damage since there is no incendiary effect.

Maybe if that type of damage was more effective the gun would be put on equal footing with the other guns.

 

edit:

Ahh, thats why those Su-25 seems indestructibles to my 30mm canons yesterday...

I definitely agree, I had a test mission with 4 SU-25 as targets from the beginning of the beta, if you don't rip their wings off they will continue flying like it's nothing.

In air to air gun I only flew MiG-21 and Mirage-2000C, against different types of AI, the DEFA seemed on par with the MiG's 23mm as far as I remember.

I did only one flight in SU-27 against a friend and the gun was brutally effective, ripping his plane like paper...

 

That's not a great excuse for it though

I only summarized the content of the thread. I'd like it to be more effective too.

 

Including 5+ hits on elevators / rudder without any significant damage.

Was it against AI? They continue flying even if you remove both elevators and rudders Edited April 6, 2016 by PiedDroit

[mattebubben]

I remember those, it looks like the targets are bursting into fireballs.

Currently in DCS it looks like there is no incendiary effect, it looks like damage is done through kinetic and explosive power (not only Mirage's gun).

I suspect that the DEFA has inferior kinetic stats which to less damage since there is no incendiary effect.

Maybe if that type of damage was more effective the gun would be put on equal footing with the other guns.

 

Well the incendiary effect is because it blows apart the enemy aircraft and sets fire to the onboard jetfuel.

 

And the same kind of effect would happen from any fighter cannon.

 

There are also a few Clips of wings breaking apart etc.

 

But if the damage to the enemy aircraft is severe enough to cause a large fire then the damage done to flight controls / engine / Aerodynamics would have been crippling if not outright causing destroying or causing the aircraft to become unflyable.

 

Was it against AI? They continue flying even if you remove both elevators and rudders

 

That specific one was against a AI.

 

But ive had the same thing happen in MP against MIG-21s (multiple hits without any significant damage even multiple hits to the tail section without any real damage)

 

Ive also been on the Mig-21 side.

 

Was in a dogfight with a mirage 2000.

 

He hit me multiple times with his gun (dont know exact round count but he hit me with 3 seperate bursts and i imagine there were multiple rounds hitting me in each burst)

 

But i still managed to get behind him and killed him with guns.

Edited April 6, 2016 by mattebubben

[PiedDroit]

Well the incendiary effect is because it blows apart the enemy aircraft and sets fire to the onboard jetfuel.

 

And the same kind of effect would happen from any fighter cannon.

 

There are also a few Clips of wings breaking apart etc.

 

But if the damage to the enemy aircraft is severe enough to cause a large fire then the damage done to flight controls / engine / Aerodynamics would have been crippling if not outright causing destroying or causing the aircraft to become unflyable.

Yes, I agree. It looks like such damage doesn't occur in DCS and other effects are taken in account, effectively making the DEFA look inferior.

[mattebubben]

Yes, I agree. It looks like such damage doesn't occur in DCS and other effects are taken in account, effectively making the DEFA look inferior.

 

Well what i mean is that the flames / incendiary effect is not what does the damage.

 

Its just an effect of the damage done.

 

But even without any flames showing the same damage and the same kill would have taken place.

 

They are an effect of the damage not the cause of it.

 

And any gun hits would cause the same damage.

 

So if the lack in incendiary damage is the reason the DEFA cannons are under preforming then it would be true for all Air-Air cannons.

 

Which is not the case.

 

So the lack on incendiary effects / damage has no relation to the DEFAs performance in dcs.

[PiedDroit]

They are an effect of the damage not the cause of it.

I can't tell from the video - note that I'm not telling that it's right or wrong.

Whatever the reason is, if we don't fireball any aircraft with several hits then the DEFA's stats should be beefed up a bit...

[mattebubben]

I can't tell from the video - note that I'm not telling that it's right or wrong.

Whatever the reason is, if we don't fireball any aircraft with several hits then the DEFA's stats should be beefed up a bit...

 

Im just saying that watch any guncam kills from any aircraft.

 

most of them end up with a fireball so the fact of the incendiary effect being lacking in DCS has no bearing on the DEFAs effectiveness.

 

Its underpowered not because it does not cause fireballs or light the target on fire.

 

its underpowered because it does not destroy the targets (Like the other cannons in DCS does)

 

When it comes to small fighter sized targets the difference of power between the DEFA and GSh-301 30mm cannons should make no real difference.

 

 

as an example of a 20mm vulcan kill look at the second video i linked on the last page at timestamp 6:56

 

Not sure if its a F-15 or F-16.

 

But its one of those and its armed with the Vulcan.

 

So that kind of fireball should be avaliable in DCS from all weapons but especially from Gunkills.

Edited April 6, 2016 by mattebubben

[Rlaxoxo]

I Just can't seam to understand how can someone defend that the cannons are alright and still have a straight face afterwards ...

[PiedDroit]

I Just can't seam to understand how can someone defend that the cannons are alright and still have a straight face afterwards ...

I saw no one defending it :huh:

[Badlego]

The C101 aviojet also uses the DEFA (said Wikipedia). I don't have that Module, but others who do could compare the power of both "gun Models".

[Aginor]

We don't have the armed version of the C-101 yet so we can't tell.

But it is a 3cm cannon, I expect it to pack quite a punch! :)

 

EDIT: Oh, and @ the rest of the discussion: I am pretty sure the problem here is not the gun but the damage model of the target.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Aginor

[Custard]

We don't have the armed version of the C-101 yet so we can't tell.

But it is a 3cm cannon, I expect it to pack quite a punch! :)

 

EDIT: Oh, and @ the rest of the discussion: I am pretty sure the problem here is not the gun but the damage model of the target.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case, considering every other gun in the game performs better. Even the piddly GSh-23.

[Aginor]

Hmmm.... I can't say if that is a good comparison. If you carry a single ghs-23 you have less problems with convergence and stuff while still having a higher rate of fire IIRC, that ensures more hits I guess.

Do you know (from tacview or so) how many actual hits that were?

 

 

Nevertheless: It should be checked, and i think it will be. The behaviour shown in your videos IS strange. Maybe the DEFA554 is really too weak. But the damage models are weird as well. I have managed to "one-shot" (I think it was four rounds hitting) an AI MiG-29 in the fuselage with that cannon, and I scored a lot more hits against AI MiG-21's wing and fuselage that just kept flying.

 

EDIT: Also can we perhaps merge this thread with that one?

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=156771

Edited April 7, 2016 by Aginor

[Custard]

Do you know (from tacview or so) how many actual hits that were?

In the video on the left there were 17 hits.