Negative G

[IronJockel]

The effects of negative G are currently not portrait at all in the sim what makes it common practise to abuse. A lot of times my targets push the stick forward like there is no tomorrow, to evade my shots and I am guilty of doing it too. This always takes me out of the immersion. Standard G effects are IMHO spot on. I hope there are plans to introduce it.

[GGTharos]

And what would those effects be?

[IronJockel]

And what would those effects be?

 

Redout could be an option. After all, the blood of a pilot rises up into his head and his guts "move" up.

[S-GERAT]

Redout could be an option. After all, the blood of a pilot rises up into his head and his guts "move" up.

 

Redout is actually in the sim, and in a great way.. the vision turns red and you even can hear your heart pumping the blood if the maneuver is very hard.

[GGTharos]

But do you know what the realistic portrayal of this is?

 

Do you have a STOHL graph for effects of -g, or any other research?

 

Redout could be an option. After all, the blood of a pilot rises up into his head and his guts "move" up.

[IronJockel]

Redout is actually in the sim, and in a great way.. the vision turns red and you even can hear your heart pumping the blood if the maneuver is very hard.

 

Where? I never saw any of this. Did i miss an option?

 

But do you know what the realistic portrayal of this is?

 

Do you have a STOHL graph for effects of -g, or any other research?

 

Appard from the casual read i never saw a detailed analysis of this.

But a Company that made training software for the A10 should have acess to something, that could be used to simulate these effects.

[GGTharos]

Then maybe your expectations of realism are incorrect?

[Nooch]

If you go into negative g's too much your pilot's vision turns red in the sim. So I don't see any effect missing...

[Ktulu2]

I did read that red-out was an event that did not happen to every pilots, we are already lucky we do get it. Furthermore, the only realism problem I can see in the sim is that you do recover from redouts, while if you do a ''suddent'' and harsh negative G pull, you should get an AVC [no idea of the actual english tranlation for blood vessels bursting in the brain] and it should be fatal. This being said, I'm not really sure I'd want a -G instant kill...

 

SOURCE : http://www.avstop.com/ac/ac91-61.html

 

''A condition termed "redout" may occur''

The article also mentions that the cause of the blackout would be the slower hearth rate, if this is true ignore my satement about the blood vessels, although I did read it somewhere else.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ktulu2

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

Not really. Tests have been done up to -5g and the effects are known. I don't know how deep the research goes beyond the papers that I have read, but as far as the effects go for the sim, what probably should happen is that you should lose your +g tolerance for the rest of the flight depending on the severity and length of the -g pull (ie. you could go from 'nothing happened' to 'omg I can only pull 4g' )

[Ktulu2]

Ok, I checked to be sure I wasn't crazy and wikipedia seems to be where I read my thing about brain damage...Sorry for the confusion!

[GGTharos]

No problem; I don't think your conclusion is incorrect, it's more like ... rare I think? :) but I'm not certain myself.

[Hyperion35]

In addition to the effect on the pilot, I know that the MiG-21 module simulates the effects of negative-g dives with regards to the fuel feed into the engine...or lack thereof, under certain conditions.

 

And I'm amused that the Soviet fix for this problem was to install a switch next to the throttle to allow the pilot to restart the engine, as that's much cheaper than fixing the underlying design flaw...although somehow I suspect that the actual MiG-21 pilots weren't as enthusiastic about the cost savings.

 

But yeah, if you pull a negative-g dive in the MiG-21 in DCS, the engine will sometimes cut off, simulating a real "feature" of that jet.

[GGTharos]

There's really no flaw. You're not meant to fly at -g.

This fuel feed 'issue' exists for a lot of aircraft.

[Sryan]

From my understanding negative G-forces are decently modelled in DCS. For the human body, the push-pull effect seems decently modelled resulting in easier A-LOC/G-LOC after pushing negative G's. Engines seem to be realisticly affected by negative G's. An example would be the A-10C who's feedtanks can sustain negative G's for about 10-20 seconds before the feeding fails. WW2 birds we have in DCS are also designed to sustain some negative G's. Fascist germany already had designs that could sustain some negative G's in 1937. I believe the allied fighters we have or will soon have are equiped with the Miss shilling's orifice or better equipment to battle negative G.

[IronJockel]

I am aware of negative g effects shutting down the engine in the mig21 but i didn't noticed anything happening to the pilot. Is this maybe module related?

I setted g effects to "realistic"

I mostly fly the ww2 aircrafts so is it possible that these planes can't poduce enough negative g?

I am a bit confused. Did i overlooked something? Or are the effects more long-term and not so punctual?

 

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[sobek]

Fascist germany already had designs that could sustain some negative G's in 1937. I believe the allied fighters we have or will soon have are equiped with the Miss shilling's orifice or better equipment to battle negative G.

 

Sustain, no. All engines suffer oil pressure drop once negative g is sustained, even modern jet engines. Flying inverted or sustaining anything that is not positive g for more than a few seconds puts every pilot in a world of hurt. Only a few very specialized aerobatic planes are exempt from fuel lines running dry, but i doubt even those do not have the oil pressure problem.

[Vincent90]

I am aware of negative g effects shutting down the engine in the mig21 but i didn't noticed anything happening to the pilot. Is this maybe module related?

I setted g effects to "realistic"

Go to 8000 m, achieve over mach 1 and push the stick. The aircraft won't like it, but red-out will definitely occur. Same with the TF-51D, altough earlier and at lower speeds obviously.

[probad]

easiest way to experience redout is to roll inverted then push for climb.

[IronJockel]

I just tried it myself, so I was wrong. Still, it seems to me like you really have to force it. Probably why I never experience it in combat. But if it is modeled correctly I’m fine.

[Ktulu2]

Having to force it really depends on what you fly. A WW2 bird might not be fast enough to make you regret it, but I can say for sure that if you flew the F15, or any jet without bif FBW system, you would have learned not to pull -Gs since a long time. Also, as you always turn towards the canopy, in combat you will only experience +Gs

[IronJockel]

Having to force it really depends on what you fly. A WW2 bird might not be fast enough to make you regret it, but I can say for sure that if you flew the F15, or any jet without bif FBW system, you would have learned not to pull -Gs since a long time. Also, as you always turn towards the canopy, in combat you will only experience +Gs

Makes perfect sense, however: i always thought that pushing to much -G is a lot easier that +G and my current impression ingame is that it is the other way around.

[probad]

while a body's tolerance for -g is lower, i think what you are encountering is that it's also more difficult to generate sufficient -g forces to get to that point in normal operation. remember that gravity is acceleration, so inducing -g's without going inverted first means you have to make a case for having increasing acceleration against normal gravity. your g's fall the moment your pitching stops, and since you don't seem to be doing outside loops you do not have enough rate to push past 1g and get into dangerous -gs.

 

i guarantee if you try to use outside loops at combat speeds (aka a pretty bad idea) you will not be complaining about weak -g's at the bottom!

Edited April 22, 2016 by probad

[IronJockel]

Sorry if I stepped on somebody's toe.

I should have done more research before posting anything.

 

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[Solty]

Sorry if I stepped on somebody's toe.

I should have done more research before posting anything.

 

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I have just tested the P-51D and the red out works. Maybe it is an issue with German planes. Have you tested it on each plane?

 

Maybe there is just a bug. Or maybe everything works fine. :):book: I don't have the 109 and 190, so I can't check.