Gazelle Torque Bug?

[BlueKnight]

Hi,

I'm not sure if this is a bug, but the I don't think the gazelle torque is like that in real life. when I

off, I need almost full rudder to the right to counteract the torque and even after that mid air, she

is always turns around it's axis on some degree or another.

takeoffs are usually go like this no matter how much rudder I put into it, it always come back to

me:

Thanks in advance :)

[Mt5_Roie]

Its because of the Fenestron system. It requires more rudder input from the pilot. Check out on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenestron

[BlueKnight]

Its because of the Fenestron system. It requires more rudder input from the pilot. Check out on wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenestron

 

it says increased control efficency in the wiki page O_o

[Devil 505]

Not sure about you guys, but I am using the saitek rudders and when I take off, I need just a hair to the right. If I gave her full rudder, she would spin out of control. I find your experience odd. When I fly the Huey, I need a hell of a lot more rudder with her than the Gazelle. The Gazelle is very touchy and I have put several hours into her already and light light rudder on take off and landing. I will be interested to hear others experiences.

 

Regards

Robert

[Mt5_Roie]

For me it's a slow advance of right rudder...but usually about half way right in a hover. The tail system is "safer" in theory, but also weights more...so keep that in mind.

 

Do you have any other USB devices that show up in your controls? I have USB controller for my panel and they have default settings in the controls window. I find that I have to clear them from effecting and flight controls.

[BlueKnight]

For me it's a slow advance of right rudder...but usually about half way right in a hover. The tail system is "safer" in theory, but also weights more...so keep that in mind.

 

Do you have any other USB devices that show up in your controls? I have USB controller for my panel and they have default settings in the controls window. I find that I have to clear them from effecting and flight controls.

 

I don't think my keyboards and my mouse affects it. and as far as my x.55 h.o.t.a.s I made sure only my twist rudder gives commands, but I can see that's a personal problem and not with your module :) I think the twist rudder is snapping to fast for me(open the Ralt+Enter window). I guess practice is my best friend.

[Mt5_Roie]

Might want to try adding some curve to it ease the snapping.

 

I don't think my keyboards and my mouse affects it. and as far as my x.55 h.o.t.a.s I made sure only my twist rudder gives commands, but I can see that's a personal problem and not with your module :) I think the twist rudder is snapping to fast for me(open the Ralt+Enter window). I guess practice is my best friend.

[BlueKnight]

Might want to try adding some curve to it ease the snapping.

 

Another question If you are here :P why does it seem like most of the cyclic movement isn't used unlike in other modules i need to push the stick quite alot, It ends up that I fly by triming. was that intentional design?

[Mt5_Roie]

Depends on your movements. But the real gazelle you try to make minor inputs when flying, we try to model it as real as possible (in taking with a plethora of real Gazelle pilots) Remember that the Gazelle is quite different from other helicopters currently in DCS.

 

Another question If you are here :P why does it seem like most of the cyclic movement isn't used unlike in other modules i need to push the stick quite alot, It ends up that I fly by triming. was that intentional design?

[tkid]

Listen the rudder functions more like off & on, and seeing how we have to establish a good hover to fire a missile (Yes I know you can fire on the move-but its more economical to shoot from hover alot of times) it makes it really difficult to establish this, Im not saying reduce the torque from the left but fix the rudder input.

 

The off-on feeling is crap and really is vital for hover. The very tiny threshold needed to counteract the left torque needs to be optized and fixed for better rudder contol. Again torque is fine fix rudder authority.

 

Good module its awesome to fly whenever your not trying to hover which is often, you guys and Razbam are my favorite Devs.

[Fury_007]

I agree with the bugged anti-torque pedals. I have tried turning down the saturation, adding curves, and adjusting combinations of the two, but nothing really helps when it comes to the touchyness of the pedals. It seems like the most minor amount of pedal twitches the heli clockwise and counterclockwise a vast amount.

 

PLEASE FIX THE ANTI-TORQUE PEDALS!!!!!

 

Thank you

[Sim Flyer]

I am not having these problems at the moment and have also been flying her for a couple of hours. On takeoff i am not even using half right rudder when hovering it is about half rudder, not experiencing any problems at all. I actually thinks she might be easier to put into a hover than the Huey is.

 

I am not using any curves or anything on my joystick and pedals, out of the box so to speak :)

[Drakoz]

Anti-torque in a real helicopter is _very_ sensitive. More like flexing the muscles in your foot for normal control, not actually moving your foot. After flying a real Robinson R22 and R44, I increased the sensitivity of DCS Huey to match the real thing. Previously, I think I had about 25 or 30 curvature in DCS Huey because I thought the anti-torque was way too sensitive, and it was still very difficult to fly the Huey at this high curvature. Now I run DCS Huey at about 10 to 15 curvature and anti-torque is, as I said, more a muscle flex, not a foot movement. DCS Gazelle is just about the same to me (a little more sensitive than the Huey).

 

It is especially difficult in a hover, or in slow ground operations. In flight at speed, you don't notice it so much because the weather vane effect of the tail keeps the helicopter flying straight, giving you a feeling like now the anti-torque pedals are working. But in flight at speed, you can pretty much relax the anti-torque because it doesn't do anything anymore.

 

For the Gazelle, I also put about 10-15 curvature, and again, do anti-torque inputs through muscle flexing, not necessarily foot movement. This isn't a bug. It's just how real helicopters work.

 

If you are trying to fly any DCS helicopter with the rudder twist in a stick, or if you feel like the anti-torque is working like a light switch, you are going to have to get a better rudder control (see my comment below), or add significant curvature to your rudder axis to make it flyable. But it's not a bug in the sim.

 

If your goal is realism, however, you need to get the right rudder pedals. Something that allows you to push with the ball of the foot on a round peg (like in real helicopters), not something that holds your entire foot (like most rudder pedals setups for flight sims). I use the Saitek Pro Flight Combat Rudder Pedals because like a real helicopter, the foot rest is a round peg, not a "foot cup". Place the ball of your foot on the peg, and adjust anti-torque by flexing the muscles in your foot or ankle. Movement is practically imperceptible. Someone watching you move your feet would think you weren't actually doing anything. A Robinson R22 or R44, for example, really is that sensitive.

 

I used to use the Saitek Pro Flight Pedals (the kind where you put your entire foot on the pedal). But when setting the curvature to an accurate sensitivity to match a real helicopter, because I had to move my entire foot (my entire leg), it was very difficult. So I put the ball of my foot on the lower end of the pedal and flexed the pedals using muscles and my ankle. It worked much much better. Then I bought the Saitek Pro Combat Pedals and I haven't looked back since.

 

Similarly, the stick in a real helicopter is pretty sensitive. To fly the Robinson, I rested my hand on my leg and held the stick with 3 fingers, moving my fingers to fly, not my arm or hand. The Gazelle is very sensitive here as well, like a real helicopter, and the only way I've had success flying the Gazelle is to use the 3 finger method, trying to relax my hand, do small inputs, and wait (be patient) for the helicopter to respond. Don't do big movements, and don't try to counteract every movement you see because you will get into pilot induced oscillation (PIO). Again, this is exactly like a real helicopter.

 

Real helicopters sway back and forth, balancing below the rotor system. It is very unnerving to a novice, and you have be patient and let it dampen itself out, rather than trying to react to every sway left and right, or forward and back. If you try to counteract every sway you see, you get into PIO.

 

The first day I flew a real helicopter, I was able to hover an R44 five feet off the ground for 5 minutes on my own with no help from the instructor. He said barely 1 in 100 are able to do that. But, I'm not special. Learning to fly in DCS Huey is what made it possible. And in fact the one thing that made it most difficult was because my anti-torque pedals in DCS Huey were not sensitive enough, so I kept rotating too much - until I started thinking in terms of muscle flex, not foot movement. I did fine on the cyclic and collective because I had the sensitivity in DCS set about the same as the real thing.

 

Mostly, stay calm and relaxed, keep practicing, and you will eventually get it. Also, change your graphics settings to maximize FPS. Flying a helicopter at 10-20 FPS is just ridiculous. You need a faster reaction time than that to do it right. Otherwise, you are just going to get frustrated.

 

Regards,

Michael

Edited May 1, 2016 by Drakoz

[Mt5_Roie]

Very well spoken. Thanks.

 

Anti-torque in a real helicopter is _very_ sensitive. More like flexing the muscles in your foot for normal control, not actually moving your foot. After flying a real Robinson R22 and R44, I increased the sensitivity of DCS Huey to match the real thing. Previously, I think I had about 25 or 30 curvature in DCS Huey because I thought the anti-torque was way too sensitive, and it was still very difficult to fly the Huey at this high curvature. Now I run DCS Huey at about 10 to 15 curvature and anti-torque is, as I said, more a muscle flex, not a foot movement. DCS Gazelle is just about the same to me (a little more sensitive than the Huey).

 

It is especially difficult in a hover, or in slow ground operations. In flight at speed, you don't notice it so much because the weather vane effect of the tail keeps the helicopter flying straight, giving you a feeling like now the anti-torque pedals are working. But in flight at speed, you can pretty much relax the anti-torque because it doesn't do anything anymore.

 

For the Gazelle, I also put about 10-15 curvature, and again, do anti-torque inputs through muscle flexing, not necessarily foot movement. This isn't a bug. It's just how real helicopters work.

 

If you are trying to fly any DCS helicopter with the rudder twist in a stick, or if you feel like the anti-torque is working like a light switch, you are going to have to get a better rudder control (see my comment below), or add significant curvature to your rudder axis to make it flyable. But it's not a bug in the sim.

 

If your goal is realism, however, you need to get the right rudder pedals. Something that allows you to push with the ball of the foot on a round peg (like in real helicopters), not something that holds your entire foot (like most rudder pedals setups for flight sims). I use the Saitek Pro Flight Combat Rudder Pedals because like a real helicopter, the foot rest is a round peg, not a "foot cup". Place the ball of your foot on the peg, and adjust anti-torque by flexing the muscles in your foot or ankle. Movement is practically imperceptible. Someone watching you move your feet would think you weren't actually doing anything. A Robinson R22 or R44, for example, really is that sensitive.

 

I used to use the Saitek Pro Flight Pedals (the kind where you put your entire foot on the pedal). But when setting the curvature to an accurate sensitivity to match a real helicopter, because I had to move my entire foot (my entire leg), it was very difficult. So I put the ball of my foot on the lower end of the pedal and flexed the pedals using muscles and my ankle. It worked much much better. Then I bought the Saitek Pro Combat Pedals and I haven't looked back since.

 

Similarly, the stick in a real helicopter is pretty sensitive. To fly the Robinson, I rested my hand on my leg and held the stick with 3 fingers, moving my fingers to fly, not my arm or hand. The Gazelle is very sensitive here as well, like a real helicopter, and the only way I've had success flying the Gazelle is to use the 3 finger method, trying to relax my hand, do small inputs, and wait (be patient) for the helicopter to respond. Don't do big movements, and don't try to counteract every movement you see because you will get into pilot induced oscillation (PIO). Again, this is exactly like a real helicopter.

 

Real helicopters sway back and forth, balancing below the rotor system. It is very unnerving to a novice, and you have be patient and let it dampen itself out, rather than trying to react to every sway left and right, or forward and back. If you try to counteract every sway you see, you get into PIO.

 

The first day I flew a real helicopter, I was able to hover an R44 five feet off the ground for 5 minutes on my own with no help from the instructor. He said barely 1 in 100 are able to do that. But, I'm not special. Learning to fly in DCS Huey is what made it possible. And in fact the one thing that made it most difficult was because my anti-torque pedals in DCS Huey were not sensitive enough, so I kept rotating too much - until I started thinking in terms of muscle flex, not foot movement. I did fine on the cyclic and collective because I had the sensitivity in DCS set about the same as the real thing.

 

Mostly, stay calm and relaxed, keep practicing, and you will eventually get it. Also, change your graphics settings to maximize FPS. Flying a helicopter at 10-20 FPS is just ridiculous. You need a faster reaction time than that to do it right. Otherwise, you are just going to get frustrated.

 

Regards,

Michael

[NeilWillis]

I have no issues with the anti-torque inputs. I certainly don't need anywhere near full pedal input. And that is with a 60% saturation set in the inputs when using MFG Crosswind pedals.

[CrimsonGhost]

Very well spoken. Thanks.

 

For those of us who either don't have, or can't use pedals as in my situation (right leg amputee), I would love to see some kind of rudder trim. Even if it's not the most realistic. I won't even begin to guess what that would take, but if it were to happen I know I would be most grateful. I REALLY want to get to flying this bird, but every time I try to hover, or go below 100 kmh, I always wind up struggling with the tail rotor all the way to the ground. And almost always a fireball. :(

[Mt5_Roie]

WE've put it into the enhancement thread to work on.

 

For those of us who either don't have, or can't use pedals as in my situation (right leg amputee), I would love to see some kind of rudder trim. Even

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

Listen the rudder functions more like off & on, and seeing how we have to establish a good hover to fire a missile (Yes I know you can fire on the move-but its more economical to shoot from hover alot of times) it makes it really difficult to establish this, Im not saying reduce the torque from the left but fix the rudder input.

 

The off-on feeling is crap and really is vital for hover. The very tiny threshold needed to counteract the left torque needs to be optized and fixed for better rudder contol. Again torque is fine fix rudder authority.

 

Good module its awesome to fly whenever your not trying to hover which is often, you guys and Razbam are my favorite Devs.

 

Please, add some curves and less saturation to the rudder. Also, use auto-hoover when you want to fire a missile. You can't really use the auto-hoover function to land. It is not cheating, the auto-hoover is a funciton on the real Gazelle as well.

[Drakoz]

For those of us who either don't have, or can't use pedals as in my situation (right leg amputee), I would love to see some kind of rudder trim. Even if it's not the most realistic. I won't even begin to guess what that would take, but if it were to happen I know I would be most grateful. I REALLY want to get to flying this bird, but every time I try to hover, or go below 100 kmh, I always wind up struggling with the tail rotor all the way to the ground. And almost always a fireball. :(

 

Do you have a stick with rudder twist? It's not as ideal as using rudder pedals, but if you add some curvature (perhaps Curvature 15 to 30 or more) and/or change saturation, you should be able to get pretty good control from a twist stick. It will still take _lots_ of practice, but with perseverance, you'll get there. Flying a helicopter requires active and constant changing of the anti-torque pedals. At low speed (hover or landing), even the smallest change in the collective requires a similar change in anti-torque, so there is no way to trim it out and have it maintain a constant orientation. Not unless the sim is made simpler by adding a feature not found in the real thing (a auto-trim for the anti-torque pedals). The Blackshark has such auto-pilot features in real life, but simpler helicopters like the Gazelle and Huey do not.

 

Alternatively, use a separate analog control on your throttle (collective) control to adjust anti-torque. A pot on a HOTAS Cougar throttle, or Saitek X.. series throttle for example. Again, it'll be difficult, but flying a helicopter is difficult period. The trick is to decide you want to over come the difficulty and keep practicing. If you can do that, there is no doubt you will achieve your goal, even if you have to use a non-standard method of control.

 

Regards,

Michael

[Tetraptous]

I wanted to note that the real SA342 Gazelle is notable touchy in response to pedal inputs. There's a nice evaluation of the SA342 handling qualities by the US Army available through DTIC here. They suggested that the pedal travel be doubled (effectively halving the gain) because it was so touchy compared to other US helicopters. The directional response was over seven times that required by the standards at the time (report predates ADS-33). I'm a helicopter engineer, not much of a pilot, so I'm not really qualified to say much about "feel."

 

There's lots of great data in the report--I don't know precisely how the SA342M differs from the older model tested (I think just systems, weight, and power, but I didn't find differences in the aerodynamic components)--but the concerned citizenry of this forum could perform the same tests and see how well the results compare.