Examples of sound BVR tactics for M2K

[Low Blow]

Following on from an earlier thread, it was decided that we would start a thread where people could post examples of solid BVR tactics using the Mirage. Here is an example I put together last night against an F-16 armed with slammers.

 

 

NB: you may need to test and adjust for employment against humans.

[CrashO]

Video is set to private..

[Low Blow]

Thanks forgot to hit publish last night. Check now

[Braeden108]

I do the "not so dead spiral" thats where when a missle is coming at you you go into a helixal flight pattern in order to keep the missle turning it runs out of energy because of this and can be easily defeated.

[gavagai]

Oldish post, but this is a worthwhile discussion that didn't receive much attention.

 

If I'm in the F-16C I launch Fox-3, crank, and the 120 goes pitbull before long before you're in range for the S530. Instead, the AI flies an intercept course at you the whole way!

 

NB: you may need to test and adjust for employment against humans.

 

Indeed!

 

I don't think there are any 'good' tactics for BVR in the 2000C against an F-16C with Fox-3, short of avoiding the joust in the first place. If your opponent is competent I would expect the F-16C to win over 90% of the engagements, even when you do everything right.:(

 

We don't have a flyable F-16C in DCS, but it's basically the same deal against the F-15C. It's rare to encounter a human opponent in the Mig-29S with the R-77, so I don't know what to expect from that matchup.

Edited July 9, 2016 by gavagai

[OziRekt]

R77 is slightly inferior to the AMRAAM, but still quite deadly

[TheJay15]

It's already a forgone conclusion that the mirage is outperformed by later, more advanced aircraft so in a 1v1 situation your best bet is just to run or be sneaky.

 

With teamwork and a good GCI however the mirage can be very potent.

 

This is why I wish 80's servers were more popular. It would avoid this odd technology discrepancy we have.

[Madbrood]

It's already a forgone conclusion that the mirage is outperformed by later, more advanced aircraft so in a 1v1 situation your best bet is just to run or be sneaky.

 

With teamwork and a good GCI however the mirage can be very potent.

 

This is why I wish 80's servers were more popular. It would avoid this odd technology discrepancy we have.

 

Totally agree. It's still possible to get Fox 1 kills on overconfident Eagle drivers, it's just rare!

[Hook47]

My experience so far has strongly led me to believe the only real option in the M-2000C is to fly very defensively and fight your way to the merge. The AI do things that real players will probably know better, and all fast movers in the sim with exception to the MiG 21 and upcoming F-5 enjoy a total advantage against the M2000 in most engagements that lead off with BVR. Better to be sneaky and try to make it to the merge. I basically fly the M2000 very similar to how I flew the MiG 21, but with the luxury of better SA

[Bidartarra]

If I'm going against sukhois I try to fly around 20k shoot my 530 at around 15nm to 17nm and crank. Not a guaranteed kill but it can work.

[gavagai]

This is why I wish 80's servers were more popular. It would avoid this odd technology discrepancy we have.

 

What gets me is that the most capable fighters that get to fly in DCSW are LOMAC imports. Everytime a Su-27 or F-15 locks me up while I'm on the taxiway I'm like :doh:.

 

Once the 2000C RWR is capable of showing an inbound Fox-1 things will improve. For now, the only indication of an inbound R-27R/ER is that the circle disappears around the threat on the RWR while the buzzer continues to sound. If there are multiple threats on the RWR is is almost impossible to tell whether or not it is only a lock or an inbound Fox-1.

[Hook47]

If I'm going against sukhois I try to fly around 20k shoot my 530 at around 15nm to 17nm and crank. Not a guaranteed kill but it can work.

 

I've done similar and it can work sometimes, but generally that is dependent on the SU flyer doing something wrong, as a good pilot would be able to prevent the M2000 from pulling it off. All this just makes it more of a challenge and rewarding to fly the M2000 tho!

[Theskyline35]

Playing sneaky in the mountains, like the Mig-21, is the way to go if you are not flying with other planes, and fighting against F-15/Su-27/F-16 blk.52

 

In the mountain the Mirage is deadly, but in 1 vs 1 BVR, it's close to be impossible to win.

 

I made a video few months ago, against a F-16 blk.52, it was hard but I find a way to defeat it with a "snake" approach.

 

 

(It's in french but well...not that hard to understand what is happening)

 

More recently, I made an editing showing how good could be the Mirage if you know how to use it.

 

 

But, well, in general don't try BVR combat against a FC3 plane.

[TheJay15]

I really wish there was a server that had the mirage vs the mug-29A or even an S limited to its 80's weaponry. I've found that the aircraft compliment each other well and can have some very fun dogfights well still creating challenging BVR engagements

[ZHeN]

spent a lot of time in the air yesterday ... and I have to admit our beloved bird is almost toothless against current LOFC3 planes (Su-27/F-15/Mig-29) at their current state in DCS. They lock me while I'm taxing ... they see me @ 42000 feet, while I'm not emitting and they're near the ground dogfighting with some other players... they spamraam ... they perform stealth attacks with their IRSTs, you can't hide from them even in the mountains - AWACS tells them where you at ... they don't lose lock, their CCM is not affected by jammers in the air ...

Edited July 15, 2016 by ZHeN

[Chrinik]

This is why clamoring for only wanting the most potent fighters in the sim is a bad idea. 80ies servers would make most modules really useful, but I already got into fights with eagle-drivers, that the Aim-7 is so bad, and no TWS launch, and it´s not their fault the US is superiour in everything, you subhuman garbage blah blah blah...honestly I fear the Hornet will not have Aim-7 capability for some reason and them I´m boned because I can´t fly it in 80ies scenarios or competetively.

 

I find the 70-80ies to be the most interesting period of combat aviation and the broadest DCS currently simulates. But certain other people decide that nothing prior to the 90ies should exist so it makes them better pilots, I mean killwhores.

 

Honestly, the Mirage 2000 is fine on an 80ies server, the Super 530 holding up relatively well with R27R or Aim-7s, and the MiG-29A being it´s period specific opponent (with a similar armament even)...so, there was a Mirage vs. MiG server around...where did it go?

[ZHeN]

still Mig-29A carries 6 missiles and an IRST

in a PvP battle he's still superior

 

I think this all is not about fighter's generations and their technologies, but about LOFC3 low level of realism

if F-15/Su-27/Mig-29 systems were modelled with same accuracy as our M2K, there wouldn't be such a huge gap between their agilities

Edited July 15, 2016 by ZHeN

[mattebubben]

still Mig-29A carries 6 missiles and an IRST

in a PvP battle he's still superior

 

 

But the Mirage 2000 has a better radar (with a very effective TWS mode)

and a much better RWR system granting better situational awareness.

 

id say they are very evenly matched.

 

in a 1vs1 they are evenly matched and in a 2vs2 i would almost have to bet on the Mirage (due to the better situational awareness etc)

[ZHeN]

But the Mirage 2000 has a better radar (with a very effective TWS mode)

and a much better RWR system granting better situational awareness.

 

id say they are very evenly matched.

 

in a 1vs1 they are evenly matched and in a 2vs2 i would almost have to bet on the Mirage (due to the better situational awareness etc)

you're talking about IRL

but in DCS things are different

 

for instance, I feel that one of M2k's big advantages - it's low RCS (due to dimensions) - is not taken into account at all for LOFC3 planes. while it's really hard to detect Mig-21 with RDI

Edited July 15, 2016 by ZHeN

[Fri13]

 

I made a video few months ago, against a F-16 blk.52, it was hard but I find a way to defeat it with a "snake" approach.

 

 

 

I think that your problem is that your "snake" isn't really doing anything relatively speed and heading to the missile point of view.

You could try to make a far relaxed turns instead "panicking" so the missile will do the work, not you.

 

If you do very quick and small turns, for the missile you are still like a stationary target. As missiles are not dumb by the logic, they don't just directly go to the interception course but they as well have a memory and they will calculate the actual position instead just possible position in the future.

 

This way if you do radical quick turns, missile see that you are still on the same general heading as originally and does not change the course much as its range, speed and heading gives it capabilities to still reach you.

So slow down, start making bigger turns where missile will detect that you really did turn around and changes its course toward interception. Then after a while you make a new big turn and again the missile needs to re-check its memory and calculate new longer interception point and bleed the energy while you still maintain the energy for final maneuvers and then you get to use the missile speed against it.

 

And this is huge difference when Su-27S fires a R-27ET first, and then R-27R/ER 5-7 seconds after it as you just don't get to avoid both without running.

 

This is just my opinion, of course ;)

[mattebubben]

No im not just talking about IRL.

 

I have the Mirage and its my main fighter in MP and i feel it does very well.

 

And for me the TWS and RWR is more of an advantage then 2 extra missiles and the IRST is.

 

Thats just me but id rather have the advanced RWR and TWS of the Mirage then any of the advantages the Mig-29 might have

(IRST,2 more missiles and the helmet mounted sight).

[ZHeN]

okay let's elaborate on the situational awareness advantage of M2k

 

1. RWR

why do you think it's superior to the one Mig-29A has ? I'm pretty sure they're the same since Zeus67 mentioned many times he lacked unclassified data on M2k's RWR.

2. TWS

why is it superior to the one Mig-29A has ?

3. IRST

gives Mig-29A an advantage in situational awareness in radio silence mode. M2k can not afford that, it can only rely on RWR in this mode

 

update:

1. RWR

why do you think it's superior to the one Mig-29A has ? I'm pretty sure they're the same since Zeus67 mentioned many times he lacked unclassified data on M2k's RWR.

sorry, my bad, I've forgotten how SPO-15 Bereza looked like :D (haven't played Mig-29 for ~8 years)

yep, you're right, SERVAL is superior :)

Edited July 15, 2016 by ZHeN

[Fri13]

But the Mirage 2000 has a better radar (with a very effective TWS mode)

and a much better RWR system granting better situational awareness.

 

 

I wouldn't say the western RWR is much better, just different. As the SPO-15 gives exactly the data that is required, allowing you to get the full picture in fast situations when your life is at the risk. And when you are in safe area, then you will fly the aircraft to get the full picture what is around you and where in few seconds, and it is easier to actually understand as you get to see everything then.

 

And at least months back the TWS lag wasn't implemented, so we have unrealistic TWS performance as it doesn't affect to missiles pK like it should (why I have heard pilots to say that they don't use TWS as it renders missiles useless if target is not flying straight and with steady speed). And as SPO-15 reveals pilot the power of the TWS aircraft, it makes it easy to estimate range when the missile is launched and what maneuvers are required to avoid possible missile.

[jojo]

The only data that the SPO-15 gives and we don't have with SERVAL or F-15C RWR is emitter up/ down.

 

For the rest, SPO-15 is easily saturated, won't tell you the difference between 2 types of fighters, and azimuth is only accurate on front 180 degrees.

[mattebubben]

When it comes to Radar / RWR the Mirage has the same advantages over the Mig-29/Su-27s that the F-15 has.

 

Its not 100% better but it has some advantages.

 

Placement for example is better as its easier to keep constant watch over the RWR.

 

And in a 1vs1 scenario the Mirage RWR does not give it a great advantage (Other then when it comes to Active missiles)

 

But in a general air battle with multiple aircraft going around the Mirage and it western style RWR display does paint a clearer picture of your surroundings.

 

And when it comes to the Radar the TWS of the mirage is Reliable and can be used in a heavy jamming environment where the Mig-29 tws can not.

 

And its also easy to use especially now when it automatically changes to STT when you press to launch the missile

(so you dont really have to give a lock warning untill you launch your missile which nr1 can take the enemy by surprise the enemy and also might fool them into thinking its an active missile since they had no lock warning prior to the missile warning).

 

The one major fault with the Mirage atm when it comes to the RWR is the lack of the Semi-Radar launch warning (though if you play defensively you can work around that without any real danger)

but once that is implemented it will be very effective (just as good or better then the F-15 RWR).