Having problem with f-15c VSD aiming

[PrototypeBayu8]

So the other day, I was having fun in the editor, using the f-15c, and I had a hard time using the TWS mode. The main problem is that the enemy migs, are so close together in the VSD, that I sometimes locked on a target twice (I was trying to lock on 4 targets)

 

Is there any solution to that ??

[Svend_Dellepude]

There is..

Try harder! :D

As you said it's difficult, but try to go as far away from the already bugged with the cursor, while trying to bug the second one. Cursor doesn't have to be centered on a contact to bug it.

[bkthunder]

That's probably due to the implementation of the radar on the F-15 (it's an FC3 module so don't expect much in terms of system modelling). Being an air superiority fighter with one of the best radars (for the day), I'm sure the real life radar has an "Expanded" view option that allows you to zoom on a group of targets, the F-16 has it too. Information regarding the AN/APG-63 seems sparse, so probably ED had to do a lot of guesswork.

[PrototypeBayu8]

Thanks for the reply,

Do you think buying the f-15c standalone module will help ?

[Dauntless]

No, it's the same thing

 

Thanks for the reply,

Do you think buying the f-15c standalone module will help ?

 

:pilotfly:

[lunaticfringe]

The APG-63 had RAM (Raid Assessment Mode) only for a few years. RAM function in the APG-63 and 70 were similar, but issues were had by the air to air types because of the nature of display shifting as presented; the zoom function of RAM causes the focus area to rotate in relation to azimuth position; while this seems fairly intuitive, repeated pattern shift from a B-scope view to the zoom at higher azimuth angles is going to mess with SA, rather than increase it.

 

Subsequently, it was removed in favor of the already available SORT mode. SORT is an azimuth heading-stabilized mode where you would tag up the formation, and the radar then shifts into 30-degree, small bar spacing (anywhere from 3.4 up close, to 1 degree at range). Once stabilized, if you moved the heading of the airframe, the stabilized point would shift in the B-scope, giving a more natural presentation than an ambiguous rotation. Meanwhile, the pilot would shift around the stabilized target area with little "bumps" of the TDC to move apparent cell resolution around to break out multiple targets.

 

While it sounds fiddly, in practice it works, especially with formation sort responsibilities. Everybody tags up the same base target, then bumps/elevation shifts into their respective place in the pattern. Voila- everybody's got their job done, and the engagement process can continue.

 

Also helping is AIM-120's pitbull logic, which isn't as represented here...

 

That's probably due to the implementation of the radar on the F-15 (it's an FC3 module so don't expect much in terms of system modelling). Being an air superiority fighter with one of the best radars (for the day), I'm sure the real life radar has an "Expanded" view option that allows you to zoom on a group of targets, the F-16 has it too. Information regarding the AN/APG-63 seems sparse, so probably ED had to do a lot of guesswork.

[bkthunder]

The APG-63 had RAM (Raid Assessment Mode) only for a few years. RAM function in the APG-63 and 70 were similar, but issues were had by the air to air types because of the nature of display shifting as presented; the zoom function of RAM causes the focus area to rotate in relation to azimuth position; while this seems fairly intuitive, repeated pattern shift from a B-scope view to the zoom at higher azimuth angles is going to mess with SA, rather than increase it.

 

Subsequently, it was removed in favor of the already available SORT mode. SORT is an azimuth heading-stabilized mode where you would tag up the formation, and the radar then shifts into 30-degree, small bar spacing (anywhere from 3.4 up close, to 1 degree at range). Once stabilized, if you moved the heading of the airframe, the stabilized point would shift in the B-scope, giving a more natural presentation than an ambiguous rotation. Meanwhile, the pilot would shift around the stabilized target area with little "bumps" of the TDC to move apparent cell resolution around to break out multiple targets.

 

While it sounds fiddly, in practice it works, especially with formation sort responsibilities. Everybody tags up the same base target, then bumps/elevation shifts into their respective place in the pattern. Voila- everybody's got their job done, and the engagement process can continue.

 

Also helping is AIM-120's pitbull logic, which isn't as represented here...

 

Kinda hard to follow you without a graphical representation, but I think I got it (mostly).

I knew about RAM, never heard about the SORT mode. Can you point us to any reading regarding this or is it coming from your personal experience?

[lunaticfringe]

Process and applicable notes on the Multi-Target Symbol (which is what you would highlight with the TDC and commit a long press on to initiate SORT).

 

And that's not even the really fun stuff, like Expanded Azimuth (for 73 degrees of F-Pole)...

[GGTharos]

There should also be an automatic designation mode for TWS, IIRC.

[lunaticfringe]

There should also be an automatic designation mode for TWS, IIRC.

 

Required to be turned on during the first selection of TWS, but yes.

[Winston 60]

Simply zoom your view in so the radar is nearly full screen, as if you were leaning forward to get a real good closeup look at it. Or make a snap view on a button that enlarges the radar then returns to normal when the button is released.

 

With an enlarged view of the radar it's a lot easier to select multiple targets in TWS, even if they are close together.

[winchesterdelta1]

As somebody already said. You don't have to be exactly on the radar contact to bug it. So you can be a little bit above, below or next to it. Also if bank your plane slightly left and right they will separate a bit on the radar because of the memory of the radar. So the target updates will lag a bit. Knowing this you can do the following.

 

Be patient. If they are human players and not really experienced in formation flying they will separate a bit eventually.

But lets say it's a 4 ship really close together. Bug as much as you can normally. So put cursor over the target and bug it. The next one you bug might be a little bit more difficult. Try to bug him up first by putting your radar cursor next, above or a little bit below. Wait for the right moment the radar contact lags behind and lock fast. If that does not work bank left or right to get a bit more sideways separation of the radar contacts. It takes a bit of playing and practice with it. But you can lock up to 8 targets in close formation when done right (After several try's if you have enough time). It requires a bit of practice and playing with it. After a while you will know how it behaves and you will be quicker next time. Zooming in helps. But you dont need to fully zoom to achieve this.

[bkthunder]

It would be nice to have realistic radars in FC3 fighters. How's MP going to work out with a mix of simplified and high fidelity modules?

 

Flying an FC3 aircraft could give unrealistic advantages / disadvantages compared to ppl flying high fidelity modules with realistic avionics.

 

I frankly don't see how it can all fit together in the same MP arena in the future, unless also the FC3 planes have a high degree of radar and weapons systems fidelity.

 

This is a new problem because until now the only A-A fighters in the game were the FC3 ones, but with the MiG-21, Mirage 2000 and upcoming modules that's going to change.

[GGTharos]

How do you know that the hi-fi modules really have realistic advantages/disadvantages? :)

 

The biggest difference right now is that you may forget to turn on your radar or arm your weapons.

 

Everything else pretty much works for the same (for now), although we're already seeing some small advantage in the M2k's ability to easily designate the highest priority target.

 

Aircraft like the MiG-21 should be disadvantaged heavily against anything simulating a modern radar, so that's a bit of a non-issue ... and none of the FC3 aircraft pretend to be simulating something like an AESA radar.

 

It would be nice to have realistic radars in FC3 fighters. How's MP going to work out with a mix of simplified and high fidelity modules?

 

Flying an FC3 aircraft could give unrealistic advantages / disadvantages compared to ppl flying high fidelity modules with realistic avionics.

 

I frankly don't see how it can all fit together in the same MP arena in the future, unless also the FC3 planes have a high degree of radar and weapons systems fidelity.

 

This is a new problem because until now the only A-A fighters in the game were the FC3 ones, but with the MiG-21, Mirage 2000 and upcoming modules that's going to change.

[bkthunder]

How do you know that the hi-fi modules really have realistic advantages/disadvantages? :)

 

[...]although we're already seeing some small advantage in the M2k's ability to easily designate the highest priority target.

 

I guess you answered your own question :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Yes but I'd like to highlight realistic.

 

Some are obvious and you can get info about them ... others not. That's before we enter into the world of what the developers find is worth their time to code :)

[bkthunder]

Yes but I'd like to highlight realistic.

 

Some are obvious and you can get info about them ... others not. That's before we enter into the world of what the developers find is worth their time to code :)

 

 

Yeah I see your point, although let me clarify what I meant:

I said "unrealistic advantage/disadvantage: subtle difference, I know, but assuming that DCS modules are developed to the maximum extent of what is possible to know and model, in terms of aiming and weapons systems, then the other variable is the FC3 planes, which are admittedly less realistic, and therefore could present some advantages or even disadvantages in the MP arena.

 

If we then doubt the level of fidelity of the DCS modules, well, I guess the whole conversation, actually the whole point of DCS starts to crumble a bit.