Su-30 vs RAAF ALTERNATIVES

[GGTharos]

Tell me, I'm too dumb to get it.

[TucksonSonny]

The article also makes mention of russian missiles that do not yet exist and may not even see service.

 

Last time I checked, the F35 did not yet exist.;)

[tflash]

It all depends, I do not like your use of "secondary". The Irst is meant as a complementary sensor. The whole idea is to fuze sensor data. Radar has of course a lot of advantages, like being all-weather and much larger range, but these are *more* vulnerable to stealth technology than IR.

 

Currently, you can use Amraam in most of the situations where you would use Asraam (except maybe some higher off-boresight close-in situations).

 

Against a stealth aircraft, at short range, the Asraam will still provide similar performance, but the Amraam wont. It is totally impossible with current stealth technology to hide a plane at short range for a modern IR sensor. Thinking this is possible is pure phantasy, and realizing that was one of the main reasons the Comanche helicopter was shelved.

 

IRST adds an extra dimension: the whole idea of the Pirate system will be that the IR sensor data are processed and merged with the radar tracking data, so as to help out radar queing (e.g. preventing lock loss through beaming our ground clutter).

 

We all agree this all wont be of any help against F-22. But if you now also where going to claim that an F-35 would be equally "invisible" and "untouchable" to modern IR sensors in short to near medium range, I dont follow you. IR image interpretation algorythms make ECM and decoying very hard. The IR sensor and its logic "sees" and "recognizes" the shape of the aircraft.

 

The F-35 at shorter range will just be a good Eurofighter, nothing more. It can't be. Physics has its limits. Combat Within Enhanced Visual Range is something different than BVR.

 

The real uncertainty at the moment is the question if the Pirate (Typhoon) and OSF sensors on the Rafale will gain the maturity that is expected. Things are not going very well, with much problems and delays.

 

My opinion is that a modern IRST that would achieve the performance goals set coupled to an IR weapon like Mica IR with two-way datalink could give very good short-to-medium range performance, even against F-35.

 

The performance would be similar to the R-27ET in Lockon wonderweapon.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

...stealth+datalink.

When datalink is established, the stealth is no more. Because of the datalink! :smartass:

[TucksonSonny]

Second rate. Stealthy in what way? The radar is the primary sensor, IRST is secondary with lesser probablity of detection and lesser range.

It's like running on IRST in LOMAC while an F-15 is painting you - aside from certain ridiculous missile capabilities (or lack thereof) of missiles in LOMAC, it's pretty much suicide.

 

Big clue: The IRST is the secondary sensor on all aircraft that it's mounted on... well, if they have radar.

 

 

The IRST isn't some sort of answer from heaven to stealth. IRSTs were used before even the F-117 was built ... do you really think stealth aircraft would have been built if ISRT or projected IRST technology made them worthless?

 

Do you think the radar would be the primary sensor still if the IRST was really this good?

 

 

You can’t detect an IRST lock anyway (and they will have their radar off).

BTW, in the past IRST was useless because of the lack of computer-capacity (read resolution capacity).

Increase of resolution=increase of range.

As a result of better resolution PIRATE for example provides multiple target detection and tracking up to 500 targets.

[Pilotasso]

Last time I checked, the F35 did not yet exist.;)

 

Actualy the first production model is in the factory with first flight to be expected soon.

[GGTharos]

Er, BTW, I used one of those 'past' IRSTs in testing, and it worked with good resolution, thanks ;)

 

Resolution isn't as important as SNR, which is nowhere near as good as that of a radar. And by the way, a flare and a target look pretty much the same to an IRST past a certain (relatively short) range.

[TucksonSonny]

Er, BTW, I used one of those 'past' IRSTs in testing, and it worked with good resolution, thanks ;)

 

Resolution isn't as important as SNR, which is nowhere near as good as that of a radar. And by the way, a flare and a target look pretty much the same to an IRST past a certain (relatively short) range.

 

In the past computers were used already to find a mach in the criminal person photo database.

Today IRST is in fact better than radar in identification of intercepted airborne targets!

BTW, the range of PIRATE is like a lot of f22 stuff: N/A.

Anyway I got a hint from a Spanish technical forum (TECNOBIT engineer)

To explain it in simple English: The sensor system have actually a potential range that is higher than the today’s radars but indeed today’s computer – capacity is not yet ready to deal with the resolution that you need for this kind of range.

[TucksonSonny]

Actualy the first production model is in the factory with first flight to be expected soon.

 

Was it maybe a truck factory? :D

[tflash]

Now suddenly resolution isn't important. Tell that to the industry involved.

 

"In STT mode PIRATE will provide high precision tracking of a single designated target. An addition to this mode, STT Ident allows for visual identification of the target, the resolution being superior to that provided by CAPTOR. "

 

"a flare and a target look pretty much the same to an IRST past a certain (relatively short) range."

 

GGTharos, is that you telling this? Oh my. Sorry, but this is complete BS. They are definitely NOT looking the same to a Pirate sensor (which, BTW, is a key component in the Eurofighters NCTR capabilities). Forget about your flares.

 

Look at some info on this very outdated site:

 

http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/sensors.html

 

I can assure you, since then, with tranche 2 becoming reality, much progress has been made. Most issues are, just like with Raptor advances, software related.

 

My guess is good IRST technology will hit the market in the years from now, enabling Su-30's to be offered with capable systems also.

[GGTharos]

I sure can't argue :D

[pho3nix]

once again all the interested, relevent people are communicating correct and fairley well resaerched information which is great to see in the ifoum without much or any flaming. lets keep it his way. it makes for a much mor interesting and informative read among semi-adults ;)

 

Iam still of the stong opinion that our ADF will benifate from the F-35 + wedgetail more over a F-22 + F-35(ef, raf, grip) + wedgetail combination simpley due to the fact that we do not need a strong invasion force, more defencive and inervention type of assignments.

 

iam not going to repeat the networking factor of the wedgetail in detail as other people have done, but this and the training of the crews is the most important thing when it comes to any operation. case in point is the ADF involment abroad including the middle east, we have a small number of units over there yet we are given some of the most important jobs with the most precise and reliable delivery of any force in the field. no point in denying that.

 

this extended to the new generation of warfare, means that australia and its allies will have the most highely trained, intelegent officers with a perspective on the situation both therter wise and politicaly wise. this opposed to a narrow minded force with superior numbers and longer reach where their officers react roboticaly, without as much communication and without intercomunaication about the larger picture.

 

p.s sorry if its a little incoherent, iam still sleapy :) oh and keep up the intelegent reporting!

[S77th-GOYA]

When datalink is established, the stealth is no more. Because of the datalink! :smartass:

 

I'm not so sure of that. There is a new developement in datalinking that supposedly doesn't compromise stealth. A recent release regarding F-22 speaks vaguely about it.

[Shaman]

I'm not so sure of that. There is a new developement in datalinking that supposedly doesn't compromise stealth. A recent release regarding F-22 speaks vaguely about it.

 

Telepathy? ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

When datalink is established, the stealth is no more. Because of the datalink! :smartass:

 

Nope. Datalink is directional between aircraft. If you happen to be in the path of the datalink you MIGHT pick something up. Then there are the satellite components of this. Sure, if you know what to look for, you'll pick up all kinds of stuff. Too bad its coming from a source 20,000 miles above your head. :smilewink:

[Pilotasso]

I'm not so sure of that. There is a new developement in datalinking that supposedly doesn't compromise stealth. A recent release regarding F-22 speaks vaguely about it.

 

Microwave transmitions. Are extremely hard to be intercpeted. The downside is that the sender has to be in the line of sight to the reciever.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Too bad its coming from a source 20,000 miles above your head.

The signal coming from 20 000 miles is so weak that it can be jammed with a device as small as a pack of cigarettes (one AAA battery not included :) ).

[Guest IguanaKing]

Not true. You would have to put the jammer between the satellite and the aircraft it was communicating with, not to mention trying to keep up with the encryption. Several devices similar to what you mention have been tried in combat, they were all destroyed by EGBUs which were using guidance from a satellite that those devices were meant to jam. :D

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Not true.

The truth is philosophical “thing”. Let us see what the facts (scientific) are. I am not a scientist. I am an electrician. :)

You would have to put the jammer between the satellite and the aircraft it was communicating with

So the satellite that is 20 000 miles away is transmitting/receiving radio waves (wavelength?) so “directional” that those radio waves travel from the satellite to one particular airplane (that shakes due to turbulence, maneuvers in combat and etc) and there is no signal dispersion? What science (fiction?) book explains how that works?

… not to mention trying to keep up with the encryption.

Encryption does not matter when the signal is distorted.

Several devices similar to what you mention have been tried in combat, they were all destroyed by EGBUs which were using guidance from a satellite that those devices were meant to jam. :D

So you admit that they actually work! Those jammers had to be destroyed by your own admission. EGBU’s(?), I assume, home on jam devices were used, right?

[hitman]

I pwnd the Raptor this afternoon. Remember folks, theres a place for all of gods creatures...right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.

[Guest IguanaKing]

So, you're an electrician, I'm an avionics inspector who specializes in this exact area of communications. The waves being transmitted and received are in the microwave band, they do not behave in the same way other, lower frequency radio waves do. The beam can be directed into a very small area, and unless you happen to be in its path, you won't do a damn thing to that signal with a jammer. You misunderstand encryption of the datalink signal, the signal is being altered several times per second, the only way to have an effect on it is to exactly mimic that signal since it is pulsed. It is NOT a simple emission of radio waves. If you need a summary of the datalink of 5th generation aircraft, and how they can direct their signals in a particular direction...try looking at the theory that allows AESA radars to do what they do. The radiation beam is directed electronically. Ever hear of ADS-B? My shop is going to be one of the first to implement it, and it will be in USAFA aircraft. It is currently in the FAA certification process in Alaska. Anyway...ADS-B also uses signals that aren't nearly as simple as you would like to believe.

 

I'm not sure how you gathered that I was admitting these "wonderful" jammers of yours work. These jammers were used to protect high value targets...they failed. EGBU-Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit, meaning that it is guided by GPS signals from above. There is NO home on jam capability since the antennae are mounted on the trailing side of the weapon...again...DIRECTIONAL SIGNALS. The jammers were simply unable to interfere with the signals because they were not in the path between the transmitter and receiver, but they DID make a pretty good targetting beacon for the ELINT aircraft that were directing those strikes.

[Guest IguanaKing]

I pwnd the Raptor this afternoon. Remember folks, theres a place for all of gods creatures...right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.

 

You know its a federal offense to kill a raptor in the US don't you? :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

The truth is philosophical “thing”. Let us see what the facts (scientific) are. I am not a scientist. I am an electrician. :)

 

And did you brush up on your RF theory lately, as relates to jamming?

 

So the satellite that is 20 000 miles away is transmitting/receiving radio waves (wavelength?) so “directional” that those radio waves travel from the satellite to one particular airplane (that shakes due to turbulence, maneuvers in combat and etc) and there is no signal dispersion? What science (fiction?) book explains how that works?

 

It doesn't need to - it can send the signals to the entire planet. The -plane- can send a fairly direcitonal signal UP to the satellite under almost any conditions. That isn't exactly hard to imagine or implement (it has already been done, and Subs and Ships use satcom in this manner)

 

Encryption does not matter when the signal is distorted.

 

Yeah, it does. Error correcting codes is what deals with distortion.

 

So you admit that they actually work! Those jammers had to be destroyed by your own admission. EGBU’s(?), I assume, home on jam devices were used, right?

 

 

Nope. Those jammers were destroyed by weapons THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO JAM. There was no HoJ. The jammers were simply useless.

The problem is that the antenna is not oriented in the jammer's direction, you see, so it doesn't really care a whole lot about the jammer's signal.

 

THAT is what IK was talking about all the time.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Right on, GG!!! I guess we were writing our posts at pretty much the same time.

 

A good analogy to use here is having one guy stand in between two others. The guy in the middle is supposed to be able to see the guy behind him, but the guy in front turns on a wicked bright flash light. Well...he still won't have any trouble seeing the guy behind him. If his antenna (eyes) were actually pointed in the direction of the flashlight, he'd be blinded. As soon as he turns his back to the light, however, he sees his buddy just fine.

 

Its almost as if Hajduk is suggesting that a jammer aircraft in a formation of others will, not only jam his enemy's radar and keep it from tracking or getting a lock...but it will also, magically, make his enemy's radar emissions disappear from the RWRs of the rest of the aircraft in the package he is protecting. :megalol:

[Guest IguanaKing]

Oh...on the original subject of the thread:

 

This article has been debated before on the UBI forums. There is nothing wrong with Russian aircraft, but this option will not work in the end. I can tell you from personal experience, after working on both Western and Eastern aircraft, its not something that can be implemented easily. Western and Eastern aircraft construction methods are VERY different from each other, and this creates a very serious maintenance difficulty issue. Differences in the alloys used in the airframe also create HUGE headaches for maintainers.