Air-to-air tactics?

[Fred00]

I'm quite new to air-to-air engagements (having mostly flown the A-10C before) and I have a question. Without a missile warning system, how do you know when a missile has been fired against you? Do you assume that that's the case if the RWR signals that you've been locked up? Even so, how do you know how far off the missile is and (more importantly) when to break and deploy countermeasures?

 

It's all very easy with labels on, but with them off it feels like I'm blind...

[Drona]

Read this. It was written by A.S. I think, but not sure who's the author.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1827561&postcount=4

 

Also download these videos. Although old, the principles are the same.

 

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/a2a.htm

[gavagai]

I'm quite new to air-to-air engagements (having mostly flown the A-10C before) and I have a question. Without a missile warning system, how do you know when a missile has been fired against you? Do you assume that that's the case if the RWR signals that you've been locked up? Even so, how do you know how far off the missile is and (more importantly) when to break and deploy countermeasures?

 

It's all very easy with labels on, but with them off it feels like I'm blind...

 

You don't know. So far as I can tell, all the RWR gives you right now is a lock warning. In the future it is supposed to give a warning for radar-guided launches, but not for IR missiles.

 

@Kunz, that passage is written for the BMS F-16C, which assumes a BVR engagement with Fox-3 missiles. Most of my jet sim time is with that simulation, and the tactics for the F-16C do not transfer well to the Mirage 2000C, imo.

Edited July 2, 2016 by gavagai

[Drona]

Yeah, true, but it's good knowledge. Just thought of helping the guy. Never realized i was in the m2000c sub-forum..

[TomCatMucDe]

Cranking is the key. It's well explained in the link from Kunz.

You can shoot down Eagles with AMRAAMs, if you wisely use the chaff and the jammer to shorten his shooting range.

[Azrayen]

You don't know. So far as I can tell, all the RWR gives you right now is a lock warning.

 

In the future it is supposed to give a warning for radar-guided launches, but not for IR missiles.

"radar-guided launches" is not precise enough. Fox 1 or Fox 3?

 

Sorry about that, but it's a complex issue (and that's why it's a simulator).

 

See the attached image.

[grunf]

Fred00, you probably already know, but just in case you don't, there's a great tool called Tacview, used for flight analysis. Very useful for learning from your own mistakes. :D

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=139148

[Skjold]

Almost all of my kills in the Mirage has been through the use of terrain masking, AWACS (if available) and sneaking up on people with Magic II's. The rest is primarily learnt through experience such as when to go defensive, judging situations correctly etc.

 

AFAIK, the missile warning system is not functioning properly at this time. (To be implemented)

Edited July 3, 2016 by Skjold

[anlq]

Radar currently is not functioning properly, so it's a little hard to tell which tactics is good for M2000c. Flying high could get you better missile range, but it could be easily losing lock on target because of ground clutter. If you fly lower than your target (MiG-29, F-15 for example), you are certainly dead because of enemy's long range missile.

Terrain masking is not a suitable tactics for M2000c even with the help of AWACS. Flying online you'll have AWACS, means your enemy also have AWACS, so there's no advantage here. I guess I have to wait until radar is done fixing.

[Skjold]

Radar currently is not functioning properly, so it's a little hard to tell which tactics is good for M2000c. Flying high could get you better missile range, but it could be easily losing lock on target because of ground clutter. If you fly lower than your target (MiG-29, F-15 for example), you are certainly dead because of enemy's long range missile.

Terrain masking is not a suitable tactics for M2000c even with the help of AWACS. Flying online you'll have AWACS, means your enemy also have AWACS, so there's no advantage here. I guess I have to wait until radar is done fixing.

 

Not saying its ideal, but considering what you normally go up against and some other factors such as what Azrayen described i find it is the best option against F-15 with AIM-120C and Su-27 with R-27ER/ET. In a early 80's themed server or against AI i would gladly use high altitude to my advantage.

 

That said, Super 530D* has a relativly long range and if you know your stuff you can at least pose a threat to them in BVR i just tend to avoid picking a fight like that in the mirage. :thumbup:

Edited July 3, 2016 by Skjold

[anlq]

Not saying its ideal, but considering what you normally go up against and some other factors such as what Azrayen described i find it is the best option against F-15 with AIM-120C and Su-27 with R-27ER/ET. In a early 80's themed server or against AI i would gladly use high altitude to my advantage.

 

That said, Super 530F has a relativly long range and if you know your stuff you can at least pose a threat to them in BVR i just tend to avoid picking a fight like that in the mirage. :thumbup:

 

I think flanking is the best tactics. You'll need to fly parallel with the route to bulleye (50-70km is good enough), and fly low with radar off, then turn 90 degree and look for a fight, pick up a good prey, get him killed then go home.

Dont fly directly to bulleye, you'll be killed by multiple enemy fighters and sometimes with stupid teammates (happened to me twice). :doh:

[gavagai]

I've had success at high altitude. If you go up above 40,000ft you can sneak over the normal azimuth elevation of your opponents. This also adds standoff capability to the relatively short range s530, and if you get locked up by an F-15 or Su-27 you can stay outside minimum abort range more easily (assuming the enemy is lower).

 

Losing lock is a problem, but it is more often caused by rolling the Mirage (bug) than by the enemy notching below the horizon.

[SixthFall]

Losing lock is a problem, but it is more often caused by rolling the Mirage (bug) than by the enemy notching below the horizon.

 

Holy cow, is it a bad bug too! Hopefully it gets fixed soon (any idea if it is fixed in open beta yet?)

[TheJay15]

Thats a bug? I assumed it was a quirk of the aircraft that the radar couldnt roll independently of the airframe.

[gavagai]

See here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=169370&page=2

[ZHeN]

I've had success at high altitude. If you go up above 40,000ft you can sneak over the normal azimuth elevation of your opponents. This also adds standoff capability to the relatively short range s530, and if you get locked up by an F-15 or Su-27 you can stay outside minimum abort range more easily (assuming the enemy is lower).

 

Losing lock is a problem, but it is more often caused by rolling the Mirage (bug) than by the enemy notching below the horizon.

I absolutely agree with every word here

 

I had very poor A-A skills before yesterday. I went to TAW server and a dude named Dugo gave me some tips.

 

After many fails I've climbed to 30.7k (if you go higher, you'll get a contrail, that can easily be detected from the ground), switched off radar, and started looking for targets from high above with my eyeball mk1 targeting system. And to my surprise it came out very effective - targets can easily be spotted moving against the ground. 2 PvP kills in one sortie (both Mirages). One more thing: don't use ECM. It unmasks your position - giving out your direction towards enemy.

Current Mirage's flight model tends to lose energy very fast, so the key to success is to maintain high energy of your plane.

And one last thing/tip - a buddy/human wingman - gives you much more chances to survive in air to air battle.

Edited July 4, 2016 by ZHeN

[nomdeplume]

After many fails I've climbed to 30.7k (if you go higher, you'll get a contrail, that can easily be detected from the ground)

Contrail formation depends on temperature and humidity, so with different weather conditions it can form much lower, although there's usually a maximum ceiling after which they'll stop, as well.

 

Just something to keep in mind - you'll need to adapt tactics to the environment.

[ZHeN]

Contrail formation depends on temperature and humidity, so with different weather conditions it can form much lower, although there's usually a maximum ceiling after which they'll stop, as well.

yep, you're totally right

I think contrail stops at around ~38k feet in any conditions

Just something to keep in mind - you'll need to adapt tactics to the environment.

and again that's absolutely correct

there's no such thing as perfect versatile tactics for all kinds of environment

 

you always have to adapt

[ZHeN]

"radar-guided launches" is not precise enough. Fox 1 or Fox 3?

 

Sorry about that, but it's a complex issue (and that's why it's a simulator).

 

See the attached image.

are you sure about pic. 5 ?

cause I was pretty sure Fox-3's initial guidance was the same as Fox-1's - radio command line (which definitely requires radar's STT lock). Final guidance of Fox-3 is active seeker (emitting and receiving own signals) vs. Fox-1's semi-active seeker (receiving plane's radar reflected signals)

Edited July 5, 2016 by ZHeN

[ZHeN]

 

 

 

 

did anyone try engaging a cruise missile on M2000C ?

[TomCatMucDe]

are you sure about pic. 5 ?

cause I was pretty sure Fox-3's initial guidance was the same as Fox-1's - radio command line (which definitely requires radar's STT lock). Final guidance of Fox-3 is active seeker (emitting and receiving own signals) vs. Fox-1's semi-active seeker (receiving plane's radar reflected signals)

 

No, he is right. Fox3 doesnt neet STT, you can remain in TWS and shoot. You gide the missile until it can rely on its own radar. You dont see the warning only when it goes pitbull, there you have to dive, notch and chaff as much as you can to have a chance to survive.

[VTJS17_Fire]

did anyone try engaging a cruise missile on M2000C ?

Yes. :D

 

 

cruise missile Intercept

 

I did a test using a B-52 carrying twelve AGM-86C (ALCM). The buff dropped six of them, targeting an objective 135NM away. These AGM-86C flew a cruise missile typical profile: Mach 0.75 at 400 ft. AGL. Thus they are very small and smart designed, they have a small RCS and are hard to detect.

 

My radar setting for this test was: Scope 40NM, TDC 10NM, radar azimuth Narrow, 2 bar, HPRF, vertikal covering -2 to 5.

 

I found the cruise missiles at 9NM, shooting one Super 530D at 8NM. This missile hit one of two close flying targets, destroying both. The rest of these six cruise missiles I locked with a hard turn and the vertical scan special mode, shooting two of them down with my Magic IIs, the other two with my gun.

 

 

Conclusion:

If you know, that there are cruise missiles and you know their rough position, it's feasible to intercept them. But if you don't know they are there, you will not see/ detect them, because the fly very low and can only be found at close range. In my test, I had to descend from 25.000 ft. to 5.000 ft. to find them.

 

Another problem is, that you're carrying only SARH weapons. So you have to hold your lock until impact. At this point (2-3 NM away from you), the other cruise missiles are already behind you and you have to find them again. You have to find these small targets, now in an low aspect situation, where the range of the Mirages Radar is lower, than in a high aspect (HPRF) situation. It's hard to impossible to find them visually, because they are down low, small and don't have a pink glitter skin.

So, to intercept a large group of cruise missiles you need some fighters, maybe in 2 phases (1st row and 2nd row).

Edited October 26, 2016 by VTJG17_Fire

[ZHeN]

thanks for the overview ! very informative