[Not A Bug] F-86F Skins Wrecked by Updates

[SharpeXB]

I don't know if ED or Belsimtek did this but some update between May and June wrecked all the F-86 skins by adding this nose number.

Please take this off and put the plane back the way it was. This aircraft was released about two years ago and all the skins which will ever be made for it have already been made and it's highly improbable that any of the makers will correct this. So there was no point in "fixing" the default skin.

The nose number as far as I can tell is only correct for the Japan Defense Force, so why was this added to the default?

[Buzzles]

Skate posted about BORT updates at end of May:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2785861&postcount=108

[SkateZilla]

The New Borts were Introduced in May w/ 1.5.3 Update,

 

Any Livery Made before that not only needs a description.lua update, but also needs to be adjusted in the photoshop template and re-exported as UVW Coordinates have changed:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2818080&postcount=116

 

 

You are Fully Aware of this, as You have already posted regarding this before, and the answer was given then,

They wont be going backwards Just to maintain compatibility with liveries done unofficially with an unofficial template while the model was still in development.

 

it takes all be maybe 30 seconds to convert a livery using the guide I linked above.

Edited July 8, 2016 by SkateZilla

[SharpeXB]

They wont be going backwards Just to maintain compatibility with liveries done unofficially with an unofficial template while the model was still in development.

 

it takes all be maybe 30 seconds to convert a livery using the guide I linked above.

I'm not a computer programmer so I really don't have a clue how to follow those instruction. That's not 30 seconds for me...

 

Maybe the problem is that the plane was in Beta for 18 months.

There's something like 140 skins made for the plane now so I doubt they'll all get fixed. That's too bad because many are quite nice.

And it takes hours to download them all so nobody will bother, really. In the end it will just remain messed up.

So what was the point in changing the template this late in the product's cycle? Any skin which will ever be made for this plane was done a long time ago.

 

In the future, products shouldn't change their template once they've been released.

Edited July 8, 2016 by SharpeXB

[SkateZilla]

The Borts have nothing to do with the actual PSD Template.

 

The only change the template had w/ 1.5.3+ was UVW Coordinates were adjusted for the Intake and Exhaust Fan Blades (which is easily visible in bright scenes looking into the intake or exhaust).

 

I warned EVERYONE that the model will change as it's developed, I've released new templates almost immediately after every UVW Coordinate/Texture Change.

 

There were SEVERAL changes to the 3D Model during the Early Access Time as Systems were developed/Added etc.

 

The Nose Borts are Simply an Addition to the LUA File to add them, the Tail Borts have Changed as well, if you look at your skins you'll notice the tail borts are not correct on the old liveries either. I dont see you asking for those to be removed.

Edited July 8, 2016 by SkateZilla

[SharpeXB]

It's too optimistic to figure that skin makers will read about all those updates and keep editing their work and that players will keep replacing and updating. The reality is that once the plane is released there can't changes to that skin template. Nobody will get the message or re-download the skins. So it will all now just be eternally messed up. There wasn't any point in trying to fix this so late.

The whole concept of having the skins so unmanaged in DCS doesn't work very well. It's better that skins just all be oficially included. For sure they would be 3rd party created but they should just be rolled into the download. I see now many A-10 skins which were user files are now official.

I'm a big fan of collecting them and the work which goes into them is great. But unfortunately isn't all rather a wasted effort. What are the skins for anyways? They aren't used in multiplayer and there are no campaigns for the F-86 that feature Protugese or Japanese squadrons that use those skins.

There are so many mistakes on the community skins like this and the wrong country codes that the time spent on them is just not worthwhile unfortunately.

[shagrat]

The point is, you have official skins coming with the product.

If you add inofficial skins you need to complain to the guys that produced them, to either fix it, or you need to do it yourself.

 

It isn't fair to complain that they want to optimize and better their work.

[Buzzles]

In the future, products shouldn't change their template once they've been released.

 

Yes they should. Something being wrong is no excuse to leave it wrong.

 

It's up to the skinners if they want to update their skins or not.

[SharpeXB]

Yes they should. Something being wrong is no excuse to leave it wrong.

 

It's up to the skinners if they want to update their skins or not.

Not really, developers should realize that people are going to create hundreds of skins based upon what is released. and they won't bother to change them or players will never have the time to re download them so it's a one shot deal. Get it right completely before release is the only way. Once you put it out there it's too late. The skin template should only be released 100% complete or not at all.

 

The bottom line is that the process was not well handled and all the hard work put into the 100+ skins was to no purpose.

In the future I won't bother with custom skins at all in DCS

Edited July 9, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Buzzles]

The skin template should only be released 100% complete or not at all.

 

You do realise there's currently NO official F-86 template right?

 

By your own logic there, BST have done nothing wrong.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Buzzles

[SharpeXB]

You do realise there's NO official F-86 template right?

Well than that's an even bigger mistake. How can the product be out of Beta without a skin template? Or never have one?

 

Seriously what ED should do is take all the best user made skins, fix them, and incorporate them directly into the F-86F module. I can tell that's what was done with the A-10C.

 

Otherwise forget it. Only two authors got the message and have updated their skins. They're all Canadian and one US (Fernandez). The rest of them, some of which are really nice, are wrecked. And if they haven't been fixed by now, probably never will be.

 

What ED should do is take over the management of these things and incorporate them officially. It would increase the value of the modules and save the players a lot of grief.

Just imagine WWII and how many skins that involves. The current lack of any system here is a big mess. In the end, players won't bother with the skins and so the makers efforts are just wasted. It's a shame because after the aircraft themselves, the skins are the most graphically appealing thing in the sim.

[SkateZilla]

None of my Liveries have this problem.

 

all 11 released and 35+ WIP.

 

 

 

If you want to use the excuse about Old Liveries not working w/ Updated Models, then by that standard, Someone needs to go through every P-51D Polished Livery in the download's section and Re-Do the Specular layers since 1.5.0 and 2.0.0 has changed the shader and most of the high polished ones have decals washed out.

 

 

I'ts not ED's nor BST's responsibility to maintain Un-Official Art, That falls on the shoulders of the original Artist.

Edited July 9, 2016 by SkateZilla

[SharpeXB]

Well it's pretty much a waste of my time to deal with the skins. Like you just said above if I wanted to use the P-51 skins which I probably spent hours downloading way back when they're all messed up now.

 

DCS is not a sim which really needs custom skins anyways, it's not a sim that has historical scenarios where they'd be needed. And you can't use them in multiplayer. So what's the point?

 

PS correcting to what I said above, only one skin maker for the F-86 corrected their skins, unless I have this wrong that change was made on 6/21/16. So any skin prior to that is broken?

That's what I se in the User Files section.

 

It doesn't matter anyways. I won't bother with skins anymore for DCS, unless some organization happens on a larger level it's just a poor use of time for everyone involved

[shagrat]

Well it's pretty much a waste of my time to deal with the skins. Like you just said above if I wanted to use the P-51 skins which I probably spent hours downloading way back when they're all messed up now.

 

DCS is not a sim which really needs custom skins anyways, it's not a sim that has historical scenarios where they'd be needed. And you can't use them in multiplayer. So what's the point?

 

PS correcting to what I said above, only one skin maker for the F-86 corrected their skins, unless I have this wrong that change was made on 6/21/16. So any skin prior to that is broken?

That's what I se in the User Files section.

 

It doesn't matter anyways. I won't bother with skins anymore for DCS, unless some organization happens on a larger level it's just a poor use of time for everyone involved

Yes it is a waste of your time, but it is entirely your problem, as well, if you implement unofficial skins...

That is the usual risk you take with these.

Sorry, but you can't blame the devs.

[SharpeXB]

Sorry, but you can't blame the devs.

The developer apparently failed to release an official skin template and then put out changes two years after the product was released.

The nose number isn't a correct marking for any nationality except Japan as far as I can tell.

 

So yeah it kinda is their fault.

[shagrat]

It was the developers decision NOT to put an official skin template... may be the reason for that is, that they were aware, there would come changes to the model/template/etc.?

 

If you look at the "official" available templates (the few) were put long, long time AFTER release.

[SharpeXB]

The process is not well handled here compared to other sims. It doesn't need to be this way. I'm sure compared to all the rest of the work involved in making one of these modules, producing a correct skin template with the initial release would the easiest part.

Every flight sim I know of relies on user generated content for the aircraft skins. There are so many talented people out there who can provide a multitude of them. It would be overwhelming for a Dev to do this and the community does it best anyways.

But what the Dev owes the players is a good template right from the start. That's pretty normal. So why that's not done here is hard to fathom.

[shagrat]

Every other Sim/game I know off, if it allows for community assets, as well does require the “community“ to care about maintenance and updates.

It is the way these things work.

Kindly ask the skin creator to update the skins, if he isn'talteady doing it.

[SkateZilla]

Look,

The F-86F Can Have Borts Anywhere. Tail. Nose, Wings, Flaps, Nose Gear, etc etc

 

There are nations that Flew the F-86Fs with Nose Borts, so it's not a random unwanted nor unrealistic Item.

 

If you want to run unofficial user mods/skins, then it takes less than a minute to update them for your own use.

 

Im not gonna participate in this discussion further, Over NOSE BORTs being added.

 

I dont see you questioning ED for integrating a new MiG-29A 3D Model that renders every Livery on the User Files Section In-Compatible....

Edited July 9, 2016 by SkateZilla

[SharpeXB]

Every other Sim/game I know off, if it allows for community assets, as well does require the “community“ to care about maintenance and updates.

It is the way these things work.

Kindly ask the skin creator to update the skins, if he isn'talteady doing it.

There's another sim out there I'm sure most of us have. It probably has over 4,000 skins in it. None of them have ever required maintenance.

 

There's no way to "maintain" skins like that. There's too many and the creators are long gone.

It's a benefit to the game if the developer provides a stable template. Otherwise just forget the whole idea. ED only hurts themselves with this kind of stuff.

 

Be realistic guys. Creators are never going to rework their stuff because they may have made it years ago and moved on. Only one of the F-86 makers updated due to this particular issue.

Players will never bother to download all the skins again because it literally takes an entire afternoon to do so and skins in this game just aren't so important.

So do it right and make it easy or nobody will bother with it.

Edited July 9, 2016 by SharpeXB

[SkateZilla]

you dont have to re-download anything to remove the nose borts..

 

open File, paste code, Type Texture name, Type replace with name, click replace all, save, done.

[SharpeXB]

you dont have to re-download anything to remove the nose borts..

 

open File, paste code, Type Texture name, Type replace with name, click replace all, save, done.

Too complicated for me. I'll pass. Seriously I can't follow all that code stuff. I try to spend my flight sim time actually playing the game instead of messing around with files. There's about a hundred skins for this one plane too.

This sort of "update" to the game just ends up wasting people's time. If I went and fixed a hundred skins who's to say something else won't change and I'd have to do it all again. There's no point in bothering with this stuff.

Edited July 9, 2016 by SharpeXB

[shagrat]

It's a benefit to the game if the developer provides a stable template.

Yep, so wait for the stable(!) template before starting complains?

 

Be realistic guys. Creators are never going to rework their stuff because they may have made it years ago and moved on. Only one of the F-86 makers updated due to this particular

.

So you were fully aware of the problem and yet complain?

Players will never bother to download all the skins again because it literally takes an entire afternoon to do so and skins in this game just aren't so important.

Skins are not so important? What are you complaining about then?

The vanilla install and skins work.

 

P.S. ...and last but not least. The numbering can be fixed, with a tweak to a simple lua file.

[shagrat]

Too complicated for me. I'll pass. Seriously I can't follow all that code stuff. I try to spend my flight sim time actually playing the game instead of messing around with files. There's about a hundred skins for this one plane too.

This sort of "update" to the game just ends up wasting people's time. If I went and fixed a hundred skins who's to say something else won't change and I'd have to do it all again. There's no point in bothering with this stuff.

You talk about "people"... a question to the community, does anybody else see this as a critical issue? Is a full supported official template necessary, and worth delaying a release another few months or more?

[SharpeXB]

Skins are not so important? What are you complaining about then?

I'll clarify then. First, I do think skins are the about most graphically interesting part of the game. I like them personally and appreciate the work that goes into them. If they are easy to get I would just as soon collect all of them.

 

Are they "important"? Well they can't be personally assigned in multiplayer. One of the big reasons I download all the skins in other sims is so that I can see them on other players online. But that reason doesn't apply to DCS. This game also doesn't simulate historical scenarios where having certain skins adds some immersion value. Skins just don't play the same role here as they do elsewhere.

 

My complaint isn't simply about skins though. This issue reveals some really backwards process which I hope doesn't extend to other aspects. If something as simple as this can't be rolled out logically, what else is being done wrong? It's a simple case of tasks done out of order and resulting in more work.

 

Is a full supported official template necessary, and worth delaying a release another few months or more?

It's an abundantly logical thing to do. The benefits don't really require explanation. And it wouldn't require months either. The template obviously exists already, how does the developer create their own skins? It's just a simple question of deciding, Are these numbers going to be part of the template or not? And just sticking with that decision.

Why add the numbers two years after the product launched and all the skins already have them? That makes no sense unless the goal was to deliberately wreck the work of all the skin makers.

 

P.S. ...and last but not least. The numbering can be fixed, with a tweak to a simple lua file.

I did actually manage to figure that out. It's not simple for those of us who don't do this sort of thing regularly. It took about an hour to finally understand all of it.

And there's only 99 more skins to fix. So it's not simple. And it's not just me that has to fix them, it's thousands of players.

Edited July 10, 2016 by SharpeXB