Please read and help me/us all

[theGozr]

Great thread.. You must tell those things since many guys are comings with new systems and they can fly finaly lock on. I am a noob, I am a noob that can take you on a dogfight with out any trouble but a noob on the systems, I was on 169 i think and shooted ennemies and friendly just on visual ( IL2 habit ) my fault no radar at the time everyone has a first time. Great advice.

[ScEBlack1]

This is a quote from a very old post about the jammer, please new people read this and learn some things about use of jammer, some will agree or disagree with what is said here, but, it is simply to get you all used to what jamming does, thanks."The jammer is an active emmission that can be seen on your radar scope. Using it advertises your presence from much longer ranges that you could normally hope to detect a target. You will see a jamming target even with your radar in standby. You don't need to emmit a signal intended to bounce back from him. Your radar can detect the signal he's emmiting all by itself. A radar signal is nothing more than a noise ping which has a frequency and a wavelength. A jammer trys to match the frequency and wavelength but at 180 degrees phase thus cancelling out the signal, but the jammer signal itself is a perfect source for your radar to detect.

 

You may not wish to use your jammer at long ranges because of this factor, but you'll probably wish to use it once you are sure that he knows you're there. You'll want to do this BEFORE he spikes or locks you. I disagree that a jammer should be used only when you are hard spiked. By then it's often too late. If he spikes or bugs you, he's got altitude, range, bearing, aspect and course on you and can use this information to his advantage. He may have already fired a missile. Once the radar has locked on to you and all the power of the attack radar is focused on you, it's harder for the jammer to break the lock than it is for the jammer to prevent the lock in the first place. Very often, once locked, turning the jammer on will not break the lock, but again it depends on range, aspect and other variables which you'll have to be flexible in assessing when to use your jammer.

 

Let me outline a simple scenario. I don't always do it this way as there are some neat tricks and games you can play, especially if you have a human wingman, but lets assume a standrad sort of engagement. In most cases, I'll be jammer off until I reach about 35/40 miles. Once I'm at this range, I can be pretty sure that the bandit knows I'm there. He'll be seeing my paint on his RWR and he'll also be able to see me on his radar so I'm not too worried at this stage about reavealing that I'm there. At this point I'll put my jammer on and leave it on (for now). What I'm trying to do now is deny him the ability to lock or bug me with his radar and deny him an early missile shot until I can close the range a bit to either get a bug/lock on him or get a higher Pk shot. If he allows me to bug him at 30 miles, I migh pop off an early slammer anyway, just to see if I can force a response from him. The Pk might be low but he may make a mistake that I can exploit when he sees theres a slammer inbound.

 

Once I get close to the range I know that his radar will be able to burn through my jamming, I'll turn jammer off and leave it off. What I'm doing now is to prevent him from being able to fire a slammer or AA12 at me that will immediately go HOJ. If he gets a HOJ shot, he can turn and run away. I might not even get a shot at him, while I'm forced to deal with his missile. I'd rather do that to him than have it done to me! HOJ is modelled in the sim. One thing I've noticed is that if you leave jammer on a bit too late and get fired at HOJ, turning your jammer off at this point seem to have little effect on the inbound missile. I'm not sure this is true to life, but in the sim, a slammer or AA12 fired HOJ has a higher Pk, even if the jammer is subsequently turned off. I therefore prefer to play safe and turn the jammer off before I get fired on.

 

There are many other considerations such as E-pole, D-Range, cranking after firing, notching to the beam, use of chaff, etc etc, but that sums up the use of the jammer "in a nutshell" - not much of a nutshell since it's quite complex!

 

Use of two jammers will give a very slight increase in the jammer coverage, but otherwise no real advantage, I don't think. I can't say that I've really noticed this and I'm usually too busy to notice by the time it makes any difference!":book:

[GGTharos]

I'll correct a few inaccuracies ...

 

A radar signal is nothing more than a noise ping which has a frequency and a wavelength.

 

Basically so, but there's quite a bit more to a radar signal, and that fact alone can be used to defeat a jammer.

 

A jammer trys to match the frequency and wavelength but at 180 degrees phase thus cancelling out the signal, but the jammer signal itself is a perfect source for your radar to detect.

 

This is deceptive in that the way it is stated, you'd think that is the only kind of jammer - it isn't, nor is it the most effective, nor is it the type of jammer that is modelled in LOMAC. The one in LOMAC is a range jammer - Ie. it repeats your signal at different time intervals in order to make your radar think there are a whole bunch of targets on the bearing to target.

 

I disagree that a jammer should be used only when you are hard spiked. By then it's often too late.

 

Quite wrong: A clever opponent will lock onto your jammer and launch HoJ right away - the Flanker's missiles will happily fly right into your face from great distances - before you even have time to turn off your jammer. Worse yet, he -can- (and I sure do) time it such that the missile will be close to you at burn-through, at which point it'll go proportional immidiately and automatically negate anything at /all/ that you may have or may not have done with your jammer - you'll be dead all the sudden.

This is even worse with the F-15, which operates its HoJ silently (no RWR warnings of any kind until burn-through)

 

In addition, ARH missiles will track in HoJ from any distance, and due to your jammer you will get the warning when THEY burn through at a distance of about 3-4nm, thus minimizing YOUR ability to evade them!

 

Very often, once locked, turning the jammer on will not break the lock

 

100% wrong. It'll drop the lock so long as you're beyond burn-through but the tracking radar will switch to HoJ.

 

In addition, real aircraft have triangulation procedures which means they can get all the information you're trying to deny them by keeping your jammer on. In fact, in the real thing, the radar will try to keep your jammer operating specifically because your jammer provides an excellent target for his missiles.

 

While this isn't implemented in LOMAC ... YET ... it will be eventually, and keeping your jammer on under just about any circumstances will result in you taking a missile silently.

 

Fighters are equipped with -self dense- jammers. They are -not- meant to be operating continuously. LOMAC has not modelled this part correctly.

[Cosmonaut]

In lockon I have only really found ECM useful when engaging F14’s with AIM54’s. With my ecm on, the first 54 is way too easy to evade .. so easy I would say its not even tracking me however it’s a completely different ball game if you don’t carry ECM pods… try it your self and see.

 

I’m not an A2G expert but ECM here also has its limitations seeing as you can only prevent a sam launch for a few seconds longer than when not jamming. In most circumstances you will get to fire your radar missile with plenty of time to easily evade the sam whether you jam or not…

[Stealth_HR]

It won't matter - the Buk will not care for your jammer ... your jammer prevents lock on - against the buk, burn through occurs pretty much at launch range ... against any large sam, BUK, KUB, or S300, your jammer's plain useless because they will burn through typically at or before launch range.

 

 

If that's so, could you explain what the SPS-141 Gvozdika and MSP-410 Omul, found on Su-25(T) are doing in the Lock On inventory? How and what are they best used against?

[GGTharos]

They're self-protection jammers.

 

Not to sound harsh, but people need to get off the idea that SPJs are some sort of all-round supress-everything solution. They're not. They're puny.

 

They will work nicely against SHORAD, but once you start going up against more complex/larger systems, they outclass your jammers in capability and that's when you need dedicated stand-off jamming support.

 

Don't confuse SPJ's with the real deal.

 

Your SPJs will be effective against Roland, SA-8, Sa-15 and generally SAMs in that class.

[Stealth_HR]

They will work nicely against SHORAD, but once you start going up against more complex/larger systems, they outclass your jammers in capability and that's when you need dedicated stand-off jamming support.

 

So, basically, once an S-300 or Patriot (am I still in the same category?) is known in the area, a bigger jammer (which I don't think we have in LO) is needed.

 

Don't confuse SPJ's with the real deal. Your SPJs will be effective against Roland, SA-8, Sa-15 and generally SAMs in that class.

 

So basically, if it's a MANPAD or small TELAR in the lines of the Osa, it'll work. But where exactly is the line drawn? The manual, AFAIK, doesn't cover which SAMs it is or isn't effective against. How come it works against a Tor, but doesn't work against a Buk? Because the Tor is short-range and the Buk is medium? :huh: I'm seriously confused here.

 

(edit: found something similar in the manual, so please bear with my train of thought - I'm trying to devise a "rule of the thumb" here)

 

Okay, so the manual states missile lock ranges for the Х-25МЛ and Х-58 ARMs. EWRs are targetable, but not fire-able. Same for the radar-equipped AAAs - ЗСУ-23-4, Gepard. However, since the EWRs are high-power radars, and the Shilka and Gepard, EWRs are only avoided by terrain maneuvering, right? But on the other hand, the MSP-410 would work against AAAs.

 

You mentioned the SA-15 (Тор), SA-8 (Оса) and the Roland as being jammable by an SPJ. Those fall under the category of Low-altitude, short-range SAMs. In the end, does that mean an SPJ is only effective (in terms of getting closer to the target than its launch range with SPJ active) against AAA and any short-range SAM off the manual list?

(q.v. page 152/153 of the english manual - no idea how to download the russian one yet)

[Ironhand]

In the end, does that mean an SPJ is only effective (in terms of getting closer to the target than its launch range with SPJ active) against AAA and any short-range SAM off the manual list?

(q.v. page 152/153 of the english manual - no idea how to download the russian one yet)

In a word, yes. The longer-range stuff have radars powerful enough to blast through your jamming--more or less. The main reason I turn on the jammer when I'm locked by the bigger stuff is to get a few more seconds of blessed silence in the cockpit before the lock tone starts screaming again.

 

Rich

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I was on 169th server last night and there was a lots of commenting about the use ECM. 169th_Ice and I exchanged few comments as well.

 

While we do have a lots of new players and they do not know how to use their ECM, we should all work together to talk to them. This thread is a perfect place to exchange ideas, comments and recommendations on use of jammers.

 

F-15 pilots have advantage because of better radar and numerical advantage with ARH missiles. So, we, the Su’s and MiG’s pilots must fly so as to deny that advantage. Flying without jammers into and engaging envelope of the F-15 is a suicide. F-15 can engage multiple targets simultaneously, if those targets have their ECM’s turned OFF. If the F-15 pilot knows the range, even an approximate range, in one scenario for example, he simply go’s vertical in afterburner, rich 35 000 feet altitude and launch from there. It does not matter if he doesn’t hit, what matters that Su and MiG pilots now must fight the missile, and are forced to go defensive.

 

Among others, the ECM denies the F-15 pilot range and altitude info. I use ECM with F-pole, fly-back, rapid change in altitude and etc. to confuse the F-15 pilot so as that we can come close enough so that I can launch my ARH missile at the time when he launches his. Then it is about the skill and experience on who’s going to win the battle. At least, I have a fighting chance.

 

I ALWAYS turn the ECM OFF when flying back to the home base. I occasionally turn the ECM off to see it the SARH is launched on me on HOJ. And I ALWAYS turn the ECM OFF when somebody on our side asks for it for ID purpose.

 

Just my two cents …

[GGTharos]

So, basically, once an S-300 or Patriot (am I still in the same category?) is known in the area, a bigger jammer (which I don't think we have in LO) is needed.

 

Correct. The -only- time your SPJ will make a difference, in LO, is when flying high and fast towards the S300/Patriot ... in that case it limits the lock range to about 20-25nm ... at medium altitude, this range is also the max launch range, so medium alt your jammer does little for you, low alt, nothing.

 

So basically, if it's a MANPAD or small TELAR in the lines of the Osa, it'll work. But where exactly is the line drawn? The manual, AFAIK, doesn't cover which SAMs it is or isn't effective against. How come it works against a Tor, but doesn't work against a Buk? Because the Tor is short-range and the Buk is medium? :huh: I'm seriously confused here.

 

It won't work against a MANPAD, which is IR guided ...ONLY against radar guided missiles (it is a radar jammer)

Now, to be clear, the way it appears to work in Lock On (not real life) is as follows:

Each radar platform has x amount of power, and each jammer platform has y amount of power. Once x is greater than y, you have burn-through. The radars of those big SAMs have a LOT of power!

So your rule of thumb is correct: Medium and High altitude SAMs will overpower your jammer very easily - your jammer is only truly useful against the low altitude SAMs.

 

(edit: found something similar in the manual, so please bear with my train of thought - I'm trying to devise a "rule of the thumb" here)

 

Okay, so the manual states missile lock ranges for the Х-25МЛ and Х-58 ARMs. EWRs are targetable, but not fire-able. Same for the radar-equipped AAAs - ЗСУ-23-4, Gepard. However, since the EWRs are high-power radars, and the Shilka and Gepard, EWRs are only avoided by terrain maneuvering, right? But on the other hand, the MSP-410 would work against AAAs.

 

 

Essentially correct. But keep in mind that the AAA only uses a very quick radar burst to range you (realistically speaking) ... and can be switched to manual tracking also. This isn't really modelled in LO and the compromise is, I think, that the jammer doesn't really work against it.

 

The EWR's use long wavelength (low frequency) and neither ARMs nor Jammers posess the antennae required to track/jam them. Actually, ARMs can track, but due to the wavelength and size of their own antennae, they simply would not be accurate enough.

 

You mentioned the SA-15 (Тор), SA-8 (Оса) and the Roland as being jammable by an SPJ. Those fall under the category of Low-altitude, short-range SAMs. In the end, does that mean an SPJ is only effective (in terms of getting closer to the target than its launch range with SPJ active) against AAA and any short-range SAM off the manual list?

(q.v. page 152/153 of the english manual - no idea how to download the russian one yet)

 

As far as LOMAC goes, this is correct. Basically it will cut down not the /launch/ range per se, but the lock range to about half, which in many cases equates to cutting the launch range in half.

[GGTharos]

Yup, at least this is reasonable ... not realistic (not your fault, LOMAC's!) but it is pretty reasonable.

 

Eventually jammer usage will become more realistic when TWS is made capable of using triangulation and tracking jamming targets without going to STT (as it should be) and other things too. For now we live with what we have :)

 

I was on 169th server last night and there was a lots of commenting about the use ECM. 169th_Ice and I exchanged few comments as well.

 

While we do have a lots of new players and they do not know how to use their ECM, we should all work together to talk to them. This thread is a perfect place to exchange ideas, comments and recommendations on use of jammers.

 

F-15 pilots have advantage because of better radar and numerical advantage with ARH missiles. So, we, the Su’s and MiG’s pilots must fly so as to deny that advantage. Flying without jammers into and engaging envelope of the F-15 is a suicide. F-15 can engage multiple targets simultaneously, if those targets have their ECM’s turned OFF. If the F-15 pilot knows the range, even an approximate range, in one scenario for example, he simply go’s vertical in afterburner, rich 35 000 feet altitude and launch from there. It does not matter if he doesn’t hit, what matters that Su and MiG pilots now must fight the missile, and are forced to go defensive.

 

Among others, the ECM denies the F-15 pilot range and altitude info. I use ECM with F-pole, fly-back, rapid change in altitude and etc. to confuse the F-15 pilot so as that we can come close enough so that I can launch my ARH missile at the time when he launches his. Then it is about the skill and experience on who’s going to win the battle. At least, I have a fighting chance.

 

I ALWAYS turn the ECM OFF when flying back to the home base. I occasionally turn the ECM off to see it the SARH is launched on me on HOJ. And I ALWAYS turn the ECM OFF when somebody on our side asks for it for ID purpose.

 

Just my two cents …

[Stealth_HR]

Ironhand, GGTharos, thank you both, that explains the whole ordeal.

Time for me to learn which SAMs to tackle and which ones to avoid. Cheers!

[Ironhand]

I...

Time for me to learn which SAMs to tackle and which ones to avoid.

That's easy. Avoid the ones that are shooting at you. Tackle the ones that aren't. :music_whistling: :)

 

Rich

[Guest Cali]

This is for the ground guys, 10's and 25's. they use their jammer whenever their in target territory but guess what, its a total disadvantage. Enemys can see u on radar, a sam can shoot at you and you wont hear it, if you got A2A weapons you can shoot down their missiles, ECM is supposed to disrupt sam radars on LOMAC but it doesnt.

 

WRONG! ECM works good for SAMS. Next time you fly in a A-10 and your near a SAM fly with your jammers off and see what happens. Then fly with it on, the SAM will fire at you from a closer range with jammers on. That extra mile or so could equal death to that SAM. Sorry to bash you again, I didnt see the other beatings until to late.

 

You are getting the warning because of the post you make, think before you post it.

 

Now do you really need to do this?

[Ironhand]

...

Now do you really need to do this?

Everytime I get online and see something like that in my HUD I have to chuckle...finally someone found a way to introduce standoff jamming. :)

 

Rich

[Guest Cali]

Everytime I get online and see something like that in my HUD I have to chuckle...finally someone found a way to introduce standoff jamming. :)

 

Rich

 

 

The sad thing.....is I have seen it worst then that!

[Cosmonaut]

Everytime I get online and see something like that in my HUD I have to chuckle...finally someone found a way to introduce standoff jamming. :)

 

Rich

 

I call that “the ECM forest” .. ;)

 

Even if you get an extra mile closer to a sam site it wont do you much good if you’ve alerted a fighter to your location. IMO if your flying an A10 or a Frog online and there’s fighters showing up on your warning systems then leave the ECM off or it’ll just be a matter of time before you have A2A missiles as well as SAM’s to deal with.

[brewber19]

most of us A2G in the 504 are jammers off until spiked by a SAM....quick check of the RWR re: bandits...usually go jammer on until we can engage the sam, or hide (terrain mask)..then jammer off.

 

Jammer on = easy kill for a fighter....cos once you've got a Frog (T) in your sights, we don't have the maneouverabilty to yank and bank for missile avoidance....not if we've got stores aboard anyway.

 

Most missions I don't carry jammers at all unless I'm SEAD mission, I prefer the R-60 "bottle-rockets" instead, so I can scare fighters and a-10s with them....they rarely kill anything, but they make a pretty puff of smoke and give the bad guys a scare (and give my position away :().

 

For a-10s doing SEAD then jamming is a very different story...I'm no expert in the a-10 (i started with it in LO but only fly 25/25T now) but IIRC the range of a maverick is about 6km-10km depending on contrast of target, speed/altitude etc etc....and if you're up against a Tunguska or Tor you'll need the jammer just to get in to launch range. On the plus side, mavs are fire and forget (for any target) so you can keep pressing on target after sam has launched, pickle, split-s and still escape.

 

I love SEAD in the T, and actually like behaviour in 1.12a where it ISNT a kill per 25MPU/KH58....makes it much more interesting. I also commonly use Vikr against Oca and Roland etc...married up to the fantasm pod...cheaper missile, decent enough reach, no wasted weight if no radars left, can just switch to pinging tanks etc. Unless swamped with EAD like Tors etc..good loadout = Vikr, 2xMPU, and 2x58s if need be.

 

Anyways, I'm rambling. Long story short, jammers have their uses for us A2G guys, but employed sparingly...usually tho, something is gonna get us and it makes no difference between a SAM and a bandit...sometimes the area is just too hot and we shouldn't be attacking anyway (fighter sweep anyone).

 

Try messing around on our A2G server and test with jammers....see how it affects SAM performance.

[Ironhand]

...Even if you get an extra mile closer to a sam site it wont do you much good if you’ve alerted a fighter to your location. IMO if your flying an A10 or a Frog online and there’s fighters showing up on your warning systems then leave the ECM off or it’ll just be a matter of time before you have A2A missiles as well as SAM’s to deal with.

 

Just to emphasize what Cosmonaut is saying...an Su-27's or F-15's radar will show up on your A-10 RWR at a range of about 200km (124 miles). They'll be in the search ring. At around 100 km (62 miles) the symbol starts moving into the threat ring. I can't speak for the F-15 because I don't fly it but a good Flanker driver can pick you up on his radar (sans jamming) at about the same 100 km. So, if you're using your jammer, you're giving him a 100 km start on your location because that same Flanker driver will start picking up your ECM at 200 km. Talk about jumping up and down and waving your arms!

 

For any newbies reading this thread, there are always exceptions--times when you absolutely need to turn on the ECM. But have a real good reason for turning it on. And turn it off as soon as that reason no longer applies.

 

Rich

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

So, if you're using your jammer, you're giving him a 100 km start on your location because that same Flanker driver will start picking up your ECM at 200 km.

You are only giving away your bearing. However, he doesn’t know the distance and altitude. And in such a case, his tactical situation is much more complicated. While flanker can pick up jamming at 200km he does not know if the jamming aircraft is 25km or 178km far. Is it at 1000m or 4000m. What is the target speed and velocity vector.

 

While using a jammer is annoying for on line players, if properly used, it does what it supposed to do.

 

Talk about jumping up and down and waving your arms!

Well, same thing with the opponent turning his radar on. Even worst for him, because we can determine a relative distance based on the signal strength on our Bereyoza. He doesn’t know how far are we just by looking at our ECM.

[51GRIZZLY]

Posted by Hajduk Veljko:

You are only giving away your bearing. However, he doesn’t know the distance and altitude.

 

I would say your right about the distance but locking on the strobe signal will roughly give his altitude if he's low, medium or high so you can act accordingly.

 

Anyway what this tread boils down to, ( and maybe ED should mention this in the manual ) :smilewink:

 

is this:

 

TURNING ON JAMMERS IS NOT A PART OF THE STARTUP PROCEDURE ! :pilotfly:

[Xealot]

You say a jammer will break a lock, so if you know someone took a SARH shot at you, is it a good idea to flash the jammer while doing some simple defensive manouvers? (sorry for the spelling)

[GGTharos]

Yep, that's what I'm saying. Let's just say that I have it on rather good authority that a typical SPJ will 'flash' strictly to break a radar lock. This is in fact automatic. Fighter SPJs tend to be fairly simple (limited space, thus limited capability)

 

Now bomber SPJ's ... you simply cannot touch these things with a radar-guided AAM.

 

 

 

And, Hajduk, it actually isn't too hard to estimate a jammer's range or altitude, but it takes a little more work than watching your RWR for singnal strength obviously.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

And, Hajduk, it actually isn't too hard to estimate a jammer's range or altitude, but it takes a little more work than watching your RWR for singnal strength obviously.

Wow! You can estimate jammer’s range in Lock On? You know something I don’t. So keep going! This will be good for newbies as well.

 

We all know that relative jammer’s altitude is easy to estimate, so I do agree with you on that one.

[GGTharos]

Wow! You can estimate jammer’s range in Lock On? You know something I don’t. So keep going! This will be good for newbies as well.

 

We all know that relative jammer’s altitude is easy to estimate, so I do agree with you on that one.

 

Yep. And once you know their altitude, change yours so its known, and look at where the target box is - you need a 10000' or so change (Actually this is a good number). After that, it's all about memorizing a couple ratios and basically if your target does not change altitude, you can estimate his range by the change in angle.