Questions regarding INS

[zerO_crash]

The INS requires alignment any time the aircraft has been dark and cold for a long period of time. In the case of DCS, an alignment is required every time you:

 Start from the ramp

 Have requested aircraft repairs from the ground crew

 Has requested a rearm/refuel from the ground crew.

 

Excerpt from the manual. Everything nice and good, but some things I´m wondering about:

 

a) you rearm while not shutting down the aircraft, it`s not cold and not dark...

 

b) short (90 sec) memory alignment when starting from the ramp, technically, the INS "could" have been parked here last time it was used (imagination in play)

 

c) if you repair, and leave battery on, the INS will remain powered, how come you need to make a full INS alignment?

 

1) Question on aligning INS from memory after already having it aligned the normal way: After doing such alignment after rearm/refuel, does it maintain it`s 2nd stage accuracy (2 nm per hour drift)?

 

Just curious what the thinking behind this is.

[jojo]

Battery is not enough to run INS.

 

With GPU you align INS before start up.

Without GPU you align INS after engine start up.

[zerO_crash]

Zeus67, any input here? Or anyone from Razbam for that sake?

[baltic_dragon]

You should trust jojo on these issues :thumbup:

[Erk104]

Zeus67, any input here? Or anyone from Razbam for that sake?

 

Not sure if this helps ...http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=169780

[zerO_crash]

You should trust jojo on these issues :thumbup:

 

But I do trust him, and he`s right. Be that is only answer to one of my questions. It still doesn`t answer the others.

[zerO_crash]

Not sure if this helps ...http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=169780

 

Very interesting, indeed missed that thread. Yes it does seem to answer a couple of things. But one thing it doesn`t is why the INS bogs you about aligning it while rearming/refueling, considering that the aircraft is running. Otherwise, great :thumbup:

 

Again, I love realism, just wondering what the thinking is behind this decision.

[zerO_crash]

I figured that the ramp start might have to do with the aircraft being towed around the airfield for different reasons. That`s a plausible scenario, but what about the rest?

[jojo]

Very interesting, indeed missed that thread. Yes it does seem to answer a couple of things. But one thing it doesn`t is why the INS bogs you about aligning it while rearming/refueling, considering that the aircraft is running. Otherwise, great :thumbup:

 

Again, I love realism, just wondering what the thinking is behind this decision.

 

Do you shut down the engine for rearming ?

[zerO_crash]

Do you shut down the engine for rearming ?

 

Nope, no need. Therefore, why would I even need to memory align INS?

[QuiGon]

Nope, no need. Therefore, why would I even need to memory align INS?

 

SOP is to shut down the aircraft for rearming. So there is a need.

[zerO_crash]

SOP is to shut down the aircraft for rearming. So there is a need.

 

SOP, right, but war is usually not SOP. Depending on the situation, you would most not shutdown the aircraft if it was a war scenario. Be it for refueling or rearming. The question still stands.

[QuiGon]

SOP, right, but war is usually not SOP. Depending on the situation, you would most not shutdown the aircraft if it was a war scenario. Be it for refueling or rearming. The question still stands.

 

You sure about that? I know the A-10s are doing hot turnarounds if necessary, but is this also the case with the M2000? Any one who knows this?

[sedenion]

We obviously can't compare A-10 and 2000C... A-10 is a ground attack aircraft, and this is probably why its INS is corrected with GPS system. Main purpose of 2000C is A-A interception and i don't think the context of a 2000C is to do any hot turnaround like A-10, even in war context.

 

Anyway, you well understand that the DCS scenario where you land, rearm, refuel, repairs, then go again is pure fictionnal and only a gameplay feature. It is nonsense to dealing with realism in this context... the correct answer here, is to create the mission with the "INS does not require alignment" option... but i don't know how this option can be configured for online mission. For a good design, this option should appear in the mission editor in "Mission Opion" panel...

 

EDIT: I see an option in mission editor "Enforce INS Alignment and drift", in aircraft options, maybe this is what you need...

Edited July 19, 2016 by sedenion

[Dahlbeck]

Anyway, you well understand that the DCS scenario where you land, rearm, refuel, repairs, then go again is pure fictionnal and only a gameplay feature. It is nonsense to dealing with realism in this context...

 

Not in the Swedish Air Force. Hot (maybe not with engine running, but surely other systems up) refuel/rearm with pilot waiting in cockpit is/was SOP. Check the Viggen thread for info about this.

[QuiGon]

We obviously can't compare A-10 and 2000C... A-10 is a ground attack aircraft, and this is probably why its INS is corrected with GPS system.

 

Not at all. The sole reason why the A-10C has GPS is because it is more modern (2000s), while the Mirage is from the 80s where this wasn't common. The A-10A (70s) did not have a GPS too.

[sedenion]

Not in the Swedish Air Force. Hot (maybe not with engine running, but surely other systems up) refuel/rearm with pilot waiting in cockpit is/was SOP. Check the Viggen thread for info about this.

 

refuel and rearm, maybe in some specific context... but not repairs... and engine stop is needed as you said... I still think this hot ream/refuel/repais is more gameplay purpose for MP...

[sedenion]

Not at all. The sole reason why the A-10C has GPS is because it is more modern (2000s), while the Mirage is from the 80s where this wasn't common. The A-10A (70s) did not have a GPS too.

 

You surely right, design date does matter. Anyway, while the 2000D and 2000N had GPS (as jojo said in another topic), the 2000C never had. I think it's because the 2000C mission was not precision bombing or long journey (ground coordinates is not what matters in AA interception)... but maybe it's because 2000C was quickly replaced with 2000-5 in the 90's, so no need to update the 2000C. thus, i don't know, i only guess... jojo or another will probably answer better than me this crucial question.

[Erk104]

I think its a matter of weighing the accuracy of the simulation with playability and making the overall experience enjoyable for many. I read somewhere that the Mirages were hooked up to ground power for the purpose of having the INS aligned for purpose of quick reaction time. If so why would this not work for repairs? 3 minutes repair time makes simulation and playability work for all aircraft in ED however adding 8 minutes for another alignment seems counter intuitive from the perspective of the simulated pilot (Me). This is just my opinion.

[jojo]

You have the choice, on your own, to enable or not INS alignment and/ or Gyro drift (options menu/ special tab)

 

Then the mission designer can let you play with your settings or enforce INS alignment AND gyro drift.

 

In case of alignment you have the choice to do different types of alignments.

 

So it seems you already have the choice. Isn't it ?

[zerO_crash]

You have the choice, on your own, to enable or not INS alignment and/ or Gyro drift (options menu/ special tab)

 

Then the mission designer can let you play with your settings or enforce INS alignment AND gyro drift.

 

In case of alignment you have the choice to do different types of alignments.

 

So it seems you already have the choice. Isn't it ?

 

 

Jojo, not sure if that answer was meant at me, but if yes:

 

I do love realism, and therefore I ask for reasoning, not what options I have. The real plane has absolutely no problem being rearmed and refuelled hot in a real war scenario where (input any reason) forces you to do it. And whereas I love it as it is, I only ask about what the thinking is behind making it like it is with the specific case of refueling/rearming hot --> memory alignment. It`s not the what, it`s the why. Don`t misunderstand this for a ranting thread or whatever, as that is not the purpose. Again, I only wish to understand why you need to do a memory alignment in such a case.

[jojo]

No it was not for you, it was just reminder to people asking for gameplay concessions: it's already there.

 

A lot of fighters can do hot turn around. I don't have in mind one scenario where FAF used it.

So I don't even know if procedures exist. I don't know...

Maybe you have a valid point.

 

But the plane is designed with QRA in mind for sure. Different thing !

[Erk104]

You have the choice, on your own, to enable or not INS alignment and/ or Gyro drift (options menu/ special tab)

 

Then the mission designer can let you play with your settings or enforce INS alignment AND gyro drift.

 

In case of alignment you have the choice to do different types of alignments.

 

So it seems you already have the choice. Isn't it ?

 

You are correct I do have a choice.

 

 

I think you have a great sim but the INS realignment issue with the way the manual reads seem counter productive. Again just my opinion... I think a ground power connection to keep the INS aligned (even though not realistic to the real aircraft), seems more in line with the 3 minute repair of an aircraft(also not realistic to the real aircraft).:)

[jojo]

Why do you want to bother with alignment if you do a 3mn turn around ?

It's not even the time to refuel. So why do you want to enforce alignment in this type of game ?

 

It just strikes me as contradictory to perform 3mn rearm and repair and ask for realistic procedures ! But that's just me, it doesn't matter...

[Erk104]

Why do you want to bother with alignment if you do a 3mn turn around ?

It's not even the time to refuel. So why do you want to enforce alignment in this type of game ?

 

It just strikes me as contradictory to perform 3mn rearm and repair and ask for realistic procedures ! But that's just me, it doesn't matter...

 

Because after having a missile thru my wing I want to get back up there and get some pay back not wait 3 minutes then another 8 minutes for alignment. :thumbup: I do understand the options selection for Gyro Drift and Alignment these will work it just doesn't seem intuitive. It makes sense to me to connect GP and keep the INS aligned while the repair is happening. Then the Gyro Drift and Alignment options wouldn't be needed (even though its not realistic to the real aircraft, its equally so for the 3 minute repair which happens without having Options selected).

 

I didn't mean to take way from ZerO_Crash's discussion.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Erk104