F-5E Vs. MiG 21 GRUDGE MATCH ROUND 1 AAR/Debrief

[Hook47]

The round 1 results are in!

 

Team Fishbed: 18 Kills

 

Team Tiger: 5 Kills

WINNER: TEAM FISHBED!

 

THANK YOU to all participants! Everyone flew skillfully & honorably. Thank you to all the viewers who tuned in on Twitch.tv

 

TACVIEW IS UP-Thanks to Tiger-GR for the backup to our fluked server capture- https://www.dropbox.com/s/1lppehtoy7jqepm/Tacview-20160801-015145-DCS.txt.acmi?dl=0

 

A Highlight reel/youtube video of the match is coming for all those who missed or want to relive the action, and I will post that to this post once finished

Pictures from event- Taken by Airdog: https://flic.kr/s/aHskEehpeh

This thread is for constructive discussion, suggestions and commentary regarding the match. Great job to all pilots and thanks to everyone who tuned in on Twitch!

 

Special Thanks to Flankerator as sponsor and Co-Moderator, Lord Angel for Promotion, and Airdog for hosting/support

 

Additional thanks to Leatherneck Simulations and Belsimtech for producing two AWESOME modules which squared off in an epic match-up tonight!

 

RAM VIDEO OF BROADCASE:

[ame]

[/ame] Edited August 15, 2016 by Hook47

[Custard]

To the caster, use Russian icons as you can see the direction of travel of planes in F10.

[Hook47]

To the caster, use Russian icons as you can see the direction of travel of planes in F10.

 

Did not know that, thanks for the tip!

[desdinova]

I wanted to see the F-5s pull one out but it wasn't to be. The shortcomings of the AIM-9P didn't help but the teamwork and tactics of the red team were the decisive factor. They showed a lot more cunning and exploited the advantages of the Mig-21 to stay one step ahead at all times. Keep the teams the same and swap aircraft and I bet you'd see the same result.

[Hook47]

I wanted to see the F-5s pull one out but it wasn't to be. The shortcomings of the AIM-9P didn't help but the teamwork and tactics of the red team were the decisive factor. They showed a lot more cunning and exploited the advantages of the Mig-21 to stay one step ahead at all times. Keep the teams the same and swap aircraft and I bet you'd see the same result.

 

I would agree, all opponents fought with honor and we had some good pilots for sure, but Team Fishbed used some decisive tactics to include ambush and destroying the enemies AWACs. The Tiger had a tough hand dealt to it tonight and I think it will do better with improved AIM-9P5s, but teamwork was king tonight.

[*Rage*]

Look forward to the next one!

[Xenovia]

Did anyone have it recorded, i wanna see it, i missed the event :c

[Chimango]

It was fun. Thanks to all involved. Looking forward to the next one.

[Hook47]

Did anyone have it recorded, i wanna see it, i missed the event :c

 

It was recorded, I will have a video of it up in a couple days :thumbup:

[Darkbrotherhood7]

It was fun! :)

 

I for sure was not good in this round, but I'll get more practice and hopefully do my best in the next round, also with improved AIM-9P5's.

Congratulations to the team Fishbed, you guys had awesome tactics! Next round we will have to create better tactics. :)

 

I would like to say thanks for let me be there, looking forward the next round.

 

I would suggest better dynamic weather, it would make things more realistic. :-)

[Hook47]

Thank you for coming! Great flying.

 

The sportsmanship was outstanding tonight- in any PVP event emotions run high and both teams stayed positive and friendly throughout. I really appreciate that and it reflects well on the community!

[TIGER]

Really thank you for this match. Great flying from all participants.

A great thanks to Ramsey that he made this awesome match of two really wonderful aircraft. I hope next time will be more players available for such matches. and why not, to be a match with 12 vs 12 (if possible).

Congratulations to Team Fishbed for the winning, and also congratulations to team Tiger that even that we had the aircraft just only a week and still learning its potentials of the F-5E we made a great flying.

 

I am looking forward for the next match. Which I am IN from now

[FLANKERATOR]

Thanks Tiger, thats very nice of you.

 

Id personally prefer keeping the size of the teams under 10 to keep the live streaming and commentary workload at a reasonable level. Thats what organization-wise really stood out yesterday and kept us all on the edge of our seats!

 

Combat-wise, I think Team Tiger put up a great fight despite the issues with the AIM-9. Many times, I could swear they would prevail in more than one furball before being denied by the extra speed of the Fishbed combined with superior tactics from their opponents!

 

Super fun to watch event and cant help thinking about Round2:thumbup:

[Hook47]

Thanks Tiger, thats very nice of you.

 

Id personally prefer keeping the size of the teams under 10 to keep the live streaming and commentary workload at a reasonable level. Thats what organization-wise really stood out yesterday and kept us all on the edge of our seats!

 

Combat-wise, I think Team Tiger put up a great fight despite the issues with the AIM-9. Many times, I could swear they would prevail in more than one furball before being denied by the extra speed of the Fishbed combined with superior tactics from their opponents!

 

Super fun to watch event and cant help thinking about Round2:thumbup:

 

I would totally agree. As I review the Tacview and recording preparing the video to post online I can see two or three occasions were Team Tiger was in a position to win the furball, however Fishbed turned the tide with excellent tactics.

 

I also agree on match size- this size was just right and I think for this series we will sustain it going forward, maybe a larger scale match down the road in another series. I'm stoked for round 2 and the chance for Tiger to get some payback, or Fishbed to hold what they got!

Edited August 1, 2016 by Hook47

[Zooker]

Will a raw tacview be available for review?

[Bushmanni]

Is there going to be an ACMI available at some point besides the video?

[Frostie]

Big thanks to Ramsey and Flankerator for organising this fun event and all participants for making it so fun.

 

I know that the 51st guys we were very rusty in the old bird and hadn't practiced the 21 before the event, myself haven't flown it for several months and did struggle remembering the start up (had the nosecone, trimmer, hydraulic switches the wrong way for the first flight :D). Rage this was his first combat flight and Tek and Chima both a bit rusty. We'd also just finished a 2 hour squad match and were pretty burnt out, so the great organisation and fun environment created by Ramsey was most welcome.

 

I don't think the tactics used by Fishbed were particular special but rather effective. Main group as bait for the 2 ship of Scoops and Tony to flank in from the mountains. Co-operation was key and good support, thankfully Tony and Scoops and my buddies were great in this regard all on the same page and very effective at taking advantage of this.

 

In the end I saw a lot of missiles miss their mark and i'm sure I survived a lot of shots on me I never saw, if the P5 gets improved things might turn out better for the F5.

 

Also with the imposters on, MiGs were able to set up their attacks easier out of the range of what our sensors could track, this negated any tactical advantage the F5 could get from its superior radar. I know its a split decision, on or off, but just food for thought on what an unrealistic benefit the imposter gives.

 

Thanks guys for making a great hour of fun, hopefully I can do this again.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Frostie

[Hook47]

Thank you for the good feedback, Frostie, and great flying! Yea the imposter settings are a challenge and something we will be looking at hard for round two. I really appreciate you guys coming in back to back after that match. I for one was really impressed by the cool head and teamwork on the Fishbed team!

 

For those interested in a Tacview, Yes, I will have one available soon (Special thanks to Tiger-GR-Tiger for providing one since the server ACMI took a dump) and a link that that will be on the first post after I've reviewed for accuracy. So far it's matching the recorded coverage perfectly!

Edited August 1, 2016 by Hook47

[desdinova]

Big thanks to Ramsey and Flankerator for organising this fun event and all participants for making it so fun.

 

I know that the 51st guys we were very rusty in the old bird and hadn't practiced the 21 before the event, myself haven't flown it for several months and did struggle remembering the start up (had the nosecone, trimmer, hydraulic switches the wrong way for the first flight :D). Rage this was his first combat flight and Tek and Chima both a bit rusty. We'd also just finished a 2 hour squad match and were pretty burnt out, so the great organisation and fun environment created by Ramsey was most welcome.

 

I don't think the tactics used by Fishbed were particular special but rather effective. Main group as bait for the 2 ship of Scoops and Tony to flank in from the mountains. Co-operation was key and good support, thankfully Tony and Scoops and my buddies were great in this regard all on the same page and very effective at taking advantage of this.

 

In the end I saw a lot of missiles miss their mark and i'm sure I survived a lot of shots on me I never saw, if the P5 gets improved things might turn out better for the F5.

 

Also with the imposters on, MiGs were able to set up their attacks easier out of the range of what our sensors could track, this negated any tactical advantage the F5 could get from its superior radar. I know its a split decision, on or off, but just food for thought on what an unrealistic benefit the imposter gives.

 

Thanks guys for making a great hour of fun, hopefully I can do this again.

 

I'm in the impostors are realistic and necessary camp, but regardless of the state of the spotting system in DCS, I don't think it's unrealistic that a plane with a tiny frontal radar cross section could be spotted visually before being picked up on a 60's targeting radar designed to intercept bombers.

 

But the truth is if you want to avoid detection visually or otherwise you have to show more tactical imagination than flying in a loose line straight towards the enemy base at angels 7

[Hook47]

Imposters are certainly a point of discussion and something we are working on a ruling for the second round. Another consideration is VR users (I am a Rift owner myself) certainly enjoy having the options for them, so that is another consideration. Seeing if participants are using VR may be worth checking in round two

 

Did anyone from Round 1 use a VR headset?

[Zooker]

Imposters I'm assuming are the visual band-aid showing a model larger and farther than the actual aircraft model. Do I understand that correctly? If so, during the match, I did not have those. Not sure why, and I'm not a VR user, if that makes any difference.

[desdinova]

Imposters I'm assuming are the visual band-aid showing a model larger and farther than the actual aircraft model. Do I understand that correctly? If so, during the match, I did not have those. Not sure why, and I'm not a VR user, if that makes any difference.

 

Basically, the human eye can spot aircraft a lot better in real life than on a relatively tiny, 2d screen. Because of the way DCS renders objects, if a vehicle or aircraft would be less than a pixel wide, it's invisible. Because the resolution of a monitor is tiny compared to actual vision, this makes it unrealistically difficult to see anything. The problem is especially bad in VR because of the lower resolution, which is kind of like flying a plane while nearsighted and without any glasses on. Impostors are a compromise solution where a tiny, several pixel-wide sprite is drawn over the object's position to make it easier to see. Basically every flight sim uses them, but DCS didn't until relatively recently. They're a topic of controversy because the way DCS implements them isn't perfect, but also because they make a huge part of the game easier and a lot of people equate difficulty with realism.

[Hummingbird]

Basically, the human eye can spot aircraft a lot better in real life than on a relatively tiny, 2d screen. Because of the way DCS renders objects, if a vehicle or aircraft would be less than a pixel wide, it's invisible. Because the resolution of a monitor is tiny compared to actual vision, this makes it unrealistically difficult to see anything. The problem is especially bad in VR because of the lower resolution, which is kind of like flying a plane while nearsighted and without any glasses on. Impostors are a compromise solution where a tiny, several pixel-wide sprite is drawn over the object's position to make it easier to see. Basically every flight sim uses them, but DCS didn't until relatively recently. They're a topic of controversy because the way DCS implements them isn't perfect, but also because they make a huge part of the game easier and a lot of people equate difficulty with realism.

 

Well said.

[Zooker]

Aww. I was aware of the compromise. Didn't know they were referred to as imposters. Definitely did not have the advantage of imposters during the match. Now, why is that? Could my client-side settings have prevented them?

[desdinova]

Aww. I was aware of the compromise. Didn't know they were referred to as imposters. Definitely did not have the advantage of imposters during the match. Now, why is that? Could my client-side settings have prevented them?

 

AFAIK the server settings override client-side for impostors now