A couple of questions about navigation

[CheshireCat]

I decided to get back into the Shark after having played the sim off and on since it came out. I'm re-reading the manual, trying to get to grips with all of the systems and, as you may imagine, I have a couple of questions.. :helpsmilie:

 

(1) - NDB/ADF: I don't want to go into the details of these systems (there are plenty tutorials for that), but I would like to know what the general idea of these is. Basically: When would you ever use them? Assuming the ABRIS is in working condition, these additional navigation systems do not make sense to me? What realistic/common ingame situations would necessitate their use..?

 

(2) - HSI: In all the HSI variants (analog and digital) there is one marker that I can never figure out. What is the difference between "desired track angle" and "desired heading" [manual: p.6-17]? I know that the latter does point to the steerpoint, but what does the former point to? I used to think it would point in the direction that would bring the Shark back on course when it deviates, but when I play that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Often the "desired track angle" marker points away from any waypoints and/or flight plan lines.

 

(3) - GPS calibration: I know you can check on the status of GPS satellite communication, but is that ever really necessary? Are there realistic/common situation where this is useful? The same goes for satelite calibration: when would this ever come in handy in the game?

 

(4) - Coordinate formats: You can switch between two different coordinate formats in the ABRIS [manual: p.7.26], which I always do so that ABRIS coordinates match up with those displayed by the PVI-800 [e.g., manual p.6-60]. My question is: what is the difference between the two modes/formats? Why would the helicopter even operate with two different formats? Also, what format are other pilots using, e.g., if I communicate target coordinates to an A-10 pilot, which format would I use?

 

(5) - ABRIS grids: You can display the same two grids on the ABRIS that are shown/used on the F10 map [manual: p.7-33]. What is the difference/use of these two systems? I'm asking specifically in regards to BlueFlag, as I am sure those are used there, I just don't know which and how to read them. For example, I heard people talk about the position of a FARP, but I could not figure out how what they said related to either of the coordinate systems.

 

(6) - External fuel tanks: Am I correct in assuming the fuel provided by external tanks will be used up first? I.e., at some point those will be empty, jettisoned, and the Shark will then continue flying with fully loaded internal tanks? Is there an indicator that shows the state of the external tanks and/or lets you know when they are empty and can be jettisoned? Also, what is the range with and without external tanks, i.e., when do you start loading up on additional fuel? (Ideally, where can I find that information in the manual?)

 

(7) - VOR: One of the available types of waypoints that can be programmed into the ABRIS is termed "VOR" [e.g., manual p.7-45]. What does this stand for, and when should it be used?

 

 

I'm trying to compile enough knowledge to hopefully being able to write a guide about some of this stuff, so any help is greatly appreciated! :thumbup:

Edited August 17, 2016 by CheshireCat

[Reaper6]

I decided to get back into the Shark after having played the sim off and on since it came out. I'm re-reading the manual, trying to get to grips with all of the systems and, as you may imagine, I have a couple of questions.. :helpsmilie:

 

(1) - NDB/ADF: I don't want to go into the details of these systems (there are plenty tutorials for that), but I would like to know what the general idea of these is. Basically: When would you ever use them? Assuming the ABRIS is in working condition, these additional navigation systems do not make sense to me? What realistic/common ingame situations would necessitate their use..?

 

(2) - HSI: In all the HSI variants (analog and digital) there is one marker that I can never figure out. What is the difference between "desired track angle" and "desired heading" [manual: p.6-17]? I know that the latter does point to the steerpoint, but what does the former point to? I used to think it would point in the direction that would bring the Shark back on course when it deviates, but when I play that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Often the "desired track angle" marker points away from any waypoints and/or flight plan lines.

 

(3) - GPS calibration: I know you can check on the status of GPS satellite communication, but is that ever really necessary? Are there realistic/common situation where this is useful? The same goes for satelite calibration: when would this ever come in handy in the game?

 

(4) - Coordinate formats: You can switch between two different coordinate formats in the ABRIS [manual: p.7.26], which I always do so that ABRIS coordinates match up with those displayed by the PVI-800 [e.g., manual p.6-60]. My question is: what is the difference between the two modes/formats? Why would the helicopter even operate with two different formats? Also, what format are other pilots using, e.g., if I communicate target coordinates to an A-10 pilot, which format would I use?

 

(5) - ABRIS grids: You can display the same two grids on the ABRIS that are shown/used on the F10 map [manual: p.7-33]. What is the difference/use of these two systems? I'm asking specifically in regards to BlueFlag, as I am sure those are used there, I just don't know which and how to read them. For example, I heard people talk about the position of a FARP, but I could not figure out how what they said related to either of the coordinate systems.

 

(6) - External fuel tanks: Am I correct in assuming the fuel provided by external tanks will be used up first? I.e., at some point those will be empty, jettisoned, and the Shark will then continue flying with fully loaded internal tanks? Is there an indicator that shows the state of the external tanks and/or lets you know when they are empty and can be jettisoned? Also, what is the range with and without external tanks, i.e., when do you start loading up on additional fuel? (Ideally, where can I find that information in the manual?)

 

(7) - VOR: One of the available types of waypoints that can be programmed into the ABRIS is termed "VOR" [e.g., manual p.7-45]. What does this stand for, and when should it be used?

 

 

I'm trying to compile enough knowledge to hopefully being able to write a guide about some of this stuff, so any help is greatly appreciated! :thumbup:

 

NDB(Non-Directional Beacon)-ADF(Automatic Direction Finder) Can be used to find the direction to this beacon(Yellow needle on HSI). It can also be used to find a direction to anyone talking on your radio net. Basically it just helps with Navigation, I have used these in single player in horrible weather conditions. If I remember correctly there are only NDB Freq programmed for the Northern airfields. It is a somewhat useful tool when your ABRIS is out, to aid you in navigation back to an airfield or wingman. EDIT: You will have 2 NDBs at the airfield, outer and inner. You can switch between them with the toggle near your search light toggle. Auto(middle position) is not implemented, so you will have to switch between the two manually. This is useful to aid in landing in adverse fog conditions where you can't see the runway.

 

HSI- Desired Heading takes you directly to your waypoint, no matter how far off course you are. Desired Track gives you directions how to get back on the planned route for that waypoint. You must have more than one waypoint in order to use the Desired Track. You will not have a Desired Track from your initial point(where you took off from) to your first waypoint.

 

GPS Navigation - Seeing what type of Satellite coverage you would have on your planned route is useful. In bad weather conditions, but generally is not needed considering most servers have moderate to clear weather. If your ABRIS is damaged, and you repair it may be necessary to Calibrate.

 

Coordinate Formats - You have Degrees, Minutes and Seconds(Default) Normal Lat/Long Coordinates. You have to change that to Degrees and Decimal Minutes, or convert it one or the other. Normally if you communicate wit NATO CAS platforms, you would do so in MGRS.

 

ABRIS Grids- I usually only select UTM CETKA, because most people are using MGRS for coordinates. I don't display the Lat/Long on my ABRIS because it already gives all coordinates in this format.

 

External Tanks- Fuel will come from the External first(as long as you have the wing pumps on). If you put ext tanks on with less than 100% internal fuel, they will pump fuel to those tanks as well. Generally you have to watch your fuel guage, and when it begins to decrease your ext tanks are empty. Your range is highly dependent on how you are flying, load, speed, weather, etc.

 

VOR - VHF Omni Directional Radio Range, The KA50 is not equipped to utilize this. The ABRIS is actually used on civilian aircraft as well, so that is why that option is there. You can set a VOR as a waypoint, but it in no way will aid you in navigation.

 

Hopefully I covered it all, if there is anything else I will be more than happy to help.

 

Reaper6

Edited August 17, 2016 by Reaper6

[majapahit]

But for the technical explanations, you should realize the different systems depict technical progress though time. Thus NDB is simply old, and VOR the updated version that enables calculation of the the bearing to and from the signal. GPS calibration simply is there from the times when one Needed calibration, when GPS was build from lamps and fencing wire and you had to kick it around a bit to make the light come on.

[CheshireCat]

Very cool, thank you for the quick and thorough answers! It's great to get some context on some of these details, like the progression of technology and relevant use cases for the systems you usually wouldn't make use of.

 

if there is anything else I will be more than happy to help

Thanks! I'm on page 7-81 right now.. I'm pretty sure I will be back :thumbup:

[QuiGon]

Does the Ka-50 really support GPS or has the OP just confused GPS with GLONASS and everyone else just took it as that? :huh:

If it does, how do you switch between them?

[BitMaster]

I really dont think Russia will guide bombs by Nato-GPS which you can disable spot on ;)

 

Glosnass is their name for "their" global positioning system.

[QuiGon]

I really dont think Russia will guide bombs by Nato-GPS which you can disable spot on ;)

 

Glosnass is their name for "their" global positioning system.

 

The satelite navigation system in the KA-50 is only used for navigation, not for weapon employment.

 

I'm aware of what is which and (NAVSTAR) GPS is not some generic satelite navigation system. It's the specific name of the current US sat nav system, while GLONASS is the russian one. ;)

(Sorry if I'm abit pedantic, but stuff like that is a bit confusing sometimes)

 

So he just meant satelite navigation in general and there is no possibility to use GPS on the Ka-50?

Edited August 18, 2016 by QuiGon

[CheshireCat]

I wasn't aware that there is a difference, but it does make sense now that you mention it. As far as I know the manual only states that you receive information from different satellites (GLONASS & NAVSTAR) [manual: p.7-84] and that you can select individual ones for exclusion from the positioning system [manual: p.7-86].

 

So I suppose you could set it up to only use GLONASS or NAVSTAR information if you wanted to.

 

My original question, however, was merely to ask whether re-calibrating the system is ever actually necessary when flying ingame missions.

[majapahit]

My original question, however, was merely to ask whether re-calibrating the system is ever actually necessary when flying ingame missions.

 

prob not? I think I remember with marine GPS the thing simply starts to 'recalibrate'/search for new satellites or whatever incoming data, when a/too many signals were lost.

 

or, like I said, the BS GPS would perhaps be a dinosaur model and re-calibration is an option when it doesn't do 'search satellites' as 'auto' or perhaps is damaged, and following military think, you switch off suspect satellite signals and then 're-calibrate' with the remaining ones

 

(which would suggest maybe a situation of 0% visibility and finding your way back to a safe side of the skirmish? )

 

With any sight a pilot should remember the map of the briefing.

[Reaper6]

The only time you would need to calibrate the ABRIS GPS would be if some of your systems were damaged, and you returned to base for repair. Sometimes you will notice after repair your helicopter icon in ABRIS is floating around randomly. It will usually correct itself after a minute or two, or you can manually calibrate it. This would be the only instance I know of that you would need this. there are also two "test" functions you can perform thru ABRIS, without going into to much detail but basically to "remove" a disruptive satellite from ABRIS.

 

Both NAVSTAR and GLONASS can and are used by the ABRIS. Generally during wartime, NAVSTAR is encrypted in the area of operation to prevent the enemy from use. In ABRIS GLONASS satellites are represented by a "square" symbol, and NAVSTAR by a "circle" symbol.

 

Sometimes you will also have certain "failures" in ABRIS due to Satellites or the ABRIS itself. But that is like a 3 hour discussion of each failure and how to fix each one, remove a satellite, RAIM Thresholds, etc...

 

How much stuff is actually implemented in ABRIS is mind boggling to be honest. DCS definitely went above and beyond when they implemented all the functions of the ABRIS.

Also just to note again, the ABRIS never was and is not exclusive to the KA50 and was used in civilian and other aircraft.

 

Reaper6

Edited August 18, 2016 by Reaper6

[aairon]

Thanks for clearing that up Reaper6 Great info, IRL I work on all types of nav systems (All shipboard electronics for 35 years) on ships and large yachts and for me it's refreshing to see things explained clearly,

P.S. I'm still seriously mystified by the guy at the start of the courier mission where he comes before you can start engines and whacks into your KA-50 tail. I'm not kidding it can't be just me.

[Reaper6]

Thanks for clearing that up Reaper6 Great info, IRL I work on all types of nav systems (All shipboard electronics for 35 years) on ships and large yachts and for me it's refreshing to see things explained clearly,

P.S. I'm still seriously mystified by the guy at the start of the courier mission where he comes before you can start engines and whacks into your KA-50 tail. I'm not kidding it can't be just me.

 

You're welcome. I haven't played the courier mission in a long long time. You should be able to open the mission with mission editor and fix the guy running into you? I might have to try the mission out today, I think it was probably my favorite mission back in the day.

 

Reaper6

[BitMaster]

There is or was an excellent page over at tomtom's that explains in detail how GPS works, from A-Z.

 

I found it very helpfull to understand my meanwhile various GPS devices.

 

Flying low between mountains with high ridges e-w will for sure make it harder to catch a signal than at 2k altitude and clear view to the sky.

 

Good thing is caucasus is fairly south from where i come from and hills n ridges hinder less than i am used to up north

 

 

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[DieHard]

But for the technical explanations, you should realize the different systems depict technical progress though time. Thus NDB is simply old, and VOR the updated version that enables calculation of the the bearing to and from the signal. GPS calibration simply is there from the times when one Needed calibration, when GPS was build from lamps and fencing wire and you had to kick it around a bit to make the light come on.

 

Remember, a few years ago, a big hurricane hit the USA State of Florida and took all the cell phone towers down?

 

Wonder if any VOR stations went down, too? Any pro pilots in here (DCS)? What is done when VOR stations go down as secondary procedure?

 

So, any possible hurricane / tornado issues on the Caucasus or Nevada maps? LOL!