A-10 stall behaviour in DCS is incorrect

[SCU]

What do you mean 'much earlier'? How 'much earlier' should it be? Do you have some numbers? :)

 

I believe you're still mis-understanding. The value at which the chopped tone triggers is reasonable. The fact that you keep the stick peeled back and expect something else is the unreasonable part.

 

The chopped tone tells you that you have exceeded a certain value. It's quite easy to exceed it by a lot.

I can only come back with tracks and in-game data to you later this month, but for now I will only tell you of my past experience.. More than once I had wing drop just as I entered the chopped tone, and if the stall tone electronics have lag or something like Sithspawn

mentioned (is that an intended thing?) well I did test while watching the AoA gauge, I still spiralled out just as I reached 25 units and sometimes less, when I first noticed this issue I stopped being careless about how much I was 'pulling into the chopped tone' and starting paying more attention and in my dedicated tests before and after starting the thread I was quite meticulous about it. Are you guys absolutely sure that this behaviour is true to life? It is not an error but an actual feature you willingly implemented?

[SCU]

Hey, if it's proven that the wing drop in the A-10 is realistic I will shut up lol, but so far everything I have read and seen point to the opposite, realism is my goal here not my personal whims or desires ;).

[GGTharos]

Nope I'm not sure. On the other hand I'm not sure you're flying correctly, either :)

[SCU]

Nope I'm not sure. On the other hand I'm not sure you're flying correctly, either :)

 

No worries, I plan to post a track of how I fly in a few weeks (if I have free time in the next few days maybe I will try to dust off my DCS gear, it's only today that I had some time off to chat in here). In the meantime, you can have a look at the track I posted like a year ago in post #5 in this thread which was of me trying to reproduce airshow moves with sudden jerks and stuff.

 

Keep in mind, in case you want to watch it in the same version it was taken, it's a year old version of DCS world, I have no clue what version it is sadly, but I posted it the same day I took it, might be a clue..

[GGTharos]

I don't believe the pilot in the demo is jerking the stick ... this implies uncontrolled motion. He's certainly making some maneuvers with rapid g onset, but all of this is very controlled. Also, you can't really see his technique (Control movement).

[Vitormouraa]

 

Keep in mind, in case you want to watch it in the same version it was taken, it's a year old version of DCS world, I have no clue what version it is sadly, but I posted it the same day I took it, might be a clue..

 

Pretty sure this can help you with that (especial thanks to Skate)

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2249076&postcount=2

[szymv]

I thought this thread was dead for a long time now... :D

 

 

I was writing my post, but people already quite stated what I had to say...

 

anyway:

 

I agree that videos of A10's IRL show that this plane is much more "forgiving" when it comes to stall, and near-stall scenarios. I also agree with the statement mentioned by several people here, that when flying sims, you don't really sit in the plane... bear with me.

What I'm trying to say here is the fact, that when flying a real plane (or driving a car, or riding a bicycle for that matter) you experience something more than just referencing and reacting to stuff shown on screen. There is always some force acting on your body (sometimes a severe one, and your body is very good at being an "accelerometer"), there is peripheral vision, stick forces feeding back, noise of the wind blowing onto the canopy, wing buffeting, your experience as a pilot who has some hours... majority of these things is happening very fast, and you don't even consider what are you doing, you just keeping flying straight or whatever is your aim. Now, I know that with sim we do exactly the same, but the whole feedback we got is our eyes, which are slow as opposed to the feeling of the forces acting on our body. Even with experience, all that we have got is our eyes, and that experience is faulty according to flying the real thing.

 

I know that I may be stating the obvious, though I noticed the converation missed that point. Imagine yourself driving a car - you mainatain a straight course, you know when to brake, you feel when tyres lose their grip, you know when you are going too fast or turning too sharp; now - all these things feel natural, you don't really "think" about them happening.

Now, given you run a car simulation, that simulation is nothing compared to driving a real vehicle. The simmed cockpit design is perfect, the systems and switches are 1:1 compared to the real thing, but you do not ever really "feel" it.

 

Back to A-10, stalling and flying near stall is acting on the flight envelope edge. This is a fine line which changes every second or even faster, the air is never the same. Pilots flying A10's know their machines well and react swiftly to all things that the aircraft is tryig to do. Going a bit further - they fly the plane - they are not "reacting" but with their senses, they manage their flight through flight controls. Near-stall scenario is flying on that edge, and requires very fine inputs from the pilot. These inputs combine what the pilot can see, feel and expect from the machine. In the sim, you don't feel the wing dropping, but you can see it; and if you see it, it is already a bit too late to react. Seek some videos of stall training - many of these folks induce a stall, recover from it and then talk about it - both stall and recovery are happening really fast and are barely visible on the camera.

 

As phylosophical as it may seem, my tl;dr statement is that flying the simulation will always be inferior to the real thing. To back up the community manager, with no hard data, saying that something is incorrect will not do anything. On that subject, I don't really think we will ever resolve this matter. Again - I agree that both real pilots and videos of A10's show that this plane is capable of doing quite more than what we are able to achieve in the sim, but then again - you will never really know whether simulation is completley accurate or not. It may be the "world", not the plane itself. Current flight model takes into account almost every aspect of aircraft's model - it may be very accurate within the simulation environment, but you can't really check it in reality.

 

I feel that simply making the A-10 more stall-resistant would be a huge shortcut, and I don't think it's even possible. Given the flight model, handling is dependant on a variety of factors. Changing the handling would affect them too, making the whole thing... different. I imagine it would take an immense amount of time and changes to the world itself. Not worth it, since most combat scenarios, when properly executed, do not require the pilot to stall the aircraft (I may be wrong here though... but my previous points remain the same)

 

Also, what Yo-Yo said (and one real pilot backed it up, but I can't recall which one ATM) - chopped tone means you are already in a stall, real pilots don't really feel the plane stalling - chopped tone reminds them of it, so to speak.

 

I even recorded my own video of riding the chopped tone just to show, that there really is a wide margin for flying it on the edge and mismanaging the plane. Of course, I don't have that video right now. I will record it again, since the thread is still valid.

 

Cheers! :)

Edited August 9, 2017 by szymv
One paragraph about my video

[Yo-Yo]

2 SCU No, 11900 ft point was a start of right roll to zoom. It was high AoA roll and not so even because of it (lowering a wing intentionally you increase local AoA at this wing so this wing can stall deeper and "helps" to roll). But as you can see from the first video both rolls to zoom were intentionally.

 

Anyway, I hold this tone more than twice (or thrice) of your demand.

[Snoopy]

It can be a difference from simulation to real life... not matter how good our controllers are, we are not sitting in a real A-10, we can pull, push or whatever beyond limits that an A-10 pilot can due to feedback from motion, g's and wanting to live...

 

Just because there isnt a Youtube video of a wing drop doesn't mean it cant happen...

 

Not one pilot I have talked to in the real 76 or 75th has ever said anything about wing drop.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Snoopy

[David OC]

I thought this thread was dead for a long time now... :D

 

 

I was writing my post, but people already quite stated what I had to say...

 

anyway:

 

I agree that videos of A10's IRL show that this plane is much more "forgiving" when it comes to stall, and near-stall scenarios. I also agree with the statement mentioned by several people here, that when flying sims, you don't really sit in the plane... bear with me.

What I'm trying to say here is the fact, that when flying a real plane (or driving a car, or riding a bicycle for that matter) you experience something more than just referencing and reacting to stuff shown on screen. There is always some force acting on your body (sometimes a severe one, and your body is very good at being an "accelerometer"), there is peripheral vision, stick forces feeding back, noise of the wind blowing onto the canopy, wing buffeting, your experience as a pilot who has some hours... majority of these things is happening very fast, and you don't even consider what are you doing, you just keeping flying straight or whatever is your aim. Now, I know that with sim we do exactly the same, but the whole feedback we got is our eyes, which are slow as opposed to the feeling of the forces acting on our body. Even with experience, all that we have got is our eyes, and that experience is faulty according to flying the real thing.

 

I know that I may be stating the obvious, though I noticed the converation missed that point. Imagine yourself driving a car - you mainatain a straight course, you know when to brake, you feel when tyres lose their grip, you know when you are going too fast or turning too sharp; now - all these things feel natural, you don't really "think" about them happening.

Now, given you run a car simulation, that simulation is nothing compared to driving a real vehicle. The simmed cockpit design is perfect, the systems and switches are 1:1 compared to the real thing, but you do not ever really "feel" it.

 

Back to A-10, stalling and flying near stall is acting on the flight envelope edge. This is a fine line which changes every second or even faster, the air is never the same. Pilots flying A10's know their machines well and react swiftly to all things that the aircraft is tryig to do. Going a bit further - they fly the plane - they are not "reacting" but with their senses, they manage their flight through flight controls. Near-stall scenario is flying on that edge, and requires very fine inputs from the pilot. These inputs combine what the pilot can see, feel and expect from the machine. In the sim, you don't feel the wing dropping, but you can see it; and if you see it, it is already a bit too late to react. Seek some videos of stall training - many of these folks induce a stall, recover from it and then talk about it - both stall and recovery are happening really fast and are barely visible on the camera.

 

As phylosophical as it may seem, my tl;dr statement is that flying the simulation will always be inferior to the real thing. To back up the community manager, with no hard data, saying that something is incorrect will not do anything. On that subject, I don't really think we will ever resolve this matter. Again - I agree that both real pilots and videos of A10's show that this plane is capable of doing quite more than what we are able to achieve in the sim, but then again - you will never really know whether simulation is completley accurate or not. It may be the "world", not the plane itself. Current flight model takes into account almost every aspect of aircraft's model - it may be very accurate within the simulation environment, but you can't really check it in reality.

 

I feel that simply making the A-10 more stall-resistant would be a huge shortcut, and I don't think it's even possible. Given the flight model, handling is dependant on a variety of factors. Changing the handling would affect them too, making the whole thing... different. I imagine it would take an immense amount of time and changes to the world itself. Not worth it, since most combat scenarios, when properly executed, do not require the pilot to stall the aircraft (I may be wrong here though... but my previous points remain the same)

 

Also, what Yo-Yo said (and one real pilot backed it up, but I can't recall which one ATM) - chopped tone means you are already in a stall, real pilots don't really feel the plane stalling - chopped tone reminds them of it, so to speak.

 

I even recorded my own video of riding the chopped tone just to show, that there really is a wide margin for flying it on the edge and mismanaging the plane. Of course, I don't have that video right now. I will record it again, since the thread is still valid.

 

Cheers! :)

 

Great write up szymv:thumbup:

 

To quote myself.

 

I did ask one of the crew chiefs (Hey Snoopy) here long time ago, to see if they could get an A10 pilot to stall the A10 with a gopro so we can take a good look and would know the temp, loadout, weight etc. You would think they would be up for it too.:) Plus, it would be a cool video if it turn out like the one in the link below.

 

 

 

A video like the one above with all the info included, could perhaps put an end to this? OK thats a bit silly, that's not going to happen LOL.;)

 

.

[WindyTX]

Probably cos pilots dont stall their aircraft cos they can actually feel when they are near the edge of the flight envelope. We are flying a SIM and while its great fun the devs have done their best, but until you are in a full motion sim you need to just accept the fact that you will mess up and stall or break a wing in the SU27 cos you cant feel the feedback of a real Aircraft. I would not berate the devs because you dont see a wing drop in real life, pilots dont stall their aircraft as a rule and there is loads of feedback to tell them when they are near that point.

 

The A10c flight model seems really good to me and I can practically guarantee that the majority of perceived errors come from our input devices rather than from the Flight models used.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[mvsgas]

I really feel "Déjà Vu", did we all have this conversation before...several times? I bet there are several threads with the exact same post by all of us.

[David OC]

What controls do you use? Are you pulling to much G? We don't get the real G's on our body or proper feel from the IRL a10 controls, so watch the G meter very carefully when performing any aerobatics.

 

I will try and have a play on the weekend.

 

.

 

We had almost the same discussion about a year ago (the first & second pages of this thread), you can see that I replied to you with a link to a video of some guys (not pilots) trying out the A-10 simulator in an Airforce Base if I remember correctly, they were pulling crazy G's and going into the choppy warning tone without the adverse effects. Apart from that, I do watch my G's and I try to be careful as much as possible not to pull too much inside of the choppy tone, but whatever amount of care I put, to no avail..

 

And I use a thrustmaster warthog hotas.

 

I really feel "Déjà Vu", did we all have this conversation before...several times? I bet there are several threads with the exact same post by all of us.

 

 

 

What exactly are you trying to say mvsgas. :)

 

Is this an absolute perfect 100% simulation of the A10C? I would say not, is it the best simulation of the A10C and aircraft simulation in the world on PC? Yes, perhaps as good or better simulated than some IRL sims. Stepping back and looking at the big picture here, think about all the things that are modelled and need to come together to make this simulation, all the different dynamic and changing weather and weights from fuel to weapons that affect the FM dynamically.

 

If you start playing around with the FM to bump it by even 1% if this was out. How long would this take and what else could this mess up in the flight model? Then there could be even more things to complain about right.

 

For me, I take it for what it is and fly the A10 to its "simulated" limits in this "simulated environment" with the not so accurate controls we have access to. Even if it was out by a very small margin? Does it really affect the simulation that we have?

 

The way I see it, the A10 is at the 98% level, if you step back and look at the BIG picture, to find that 1% or 2% by playing with it, without accidently messing it up more, could take the same development time the whole A10 project took to create or another way to put it, someone’s life time possibly.

 

I look at the a A10 and think, to build this you need a little OCPD happing, because it's just CRazy nuts to do at this level.

 

This thread tho takes OCPD to a whole new level LOL. ;)

 

Yes that is a joke above guy's, for the one's that take everything so seriously all the time.

 

 

.

Edited August 10, 2017 by David OC

[mvsgas]

What exactly are you trying to say mvsgas. :)

.

Lol, I was trying to say there was another thread and I think we all said the same thing there, but the other thread is close so oh well.

 

Yo-yo, thanks for the info.

 

SCU, good luck bud.

[SCU]

2 SCU No, 11900 ft point was a start of right roll to zoom. It was high AoA roll and not so even because of it (lowering a wing intentionally you increase local AoA at this wing so this wing can stall deeper and "helps" to roll). But as you can see from the first video both rolls to zoom were intentionally.

 

Anyway, I hold this tone more than twice (or thrice) of your demand.

No my friend, I meant the second 11900 feet (you reached it twice, just noticed) sorry should have pointed out the time mark, it's at about 0:27, you have an aggressive right turn (almost 90°) and looking at the control indicator on the lower left I see that you never commanded it, it's right before the video ends.

 

Edit: for those who cba to go back

Edited August 10, 2017 by SCU

[SCU]

For those who are talking about the pilot is feeling his plane and controlling the plane just about right so he won't stall, in one of the videos I shared here (HUD) it shows clearly the pilot 'riding the choppy tone' and even pulling more into the tone, if you get what I mean, he gets absolutely no wing drop; you know he's pulling more by seeing the distance between the Gun Cross and the FPM/VVI increase, try the same in DCS (same bank, altitude, attitude, speed, with cleanest jet and best weather) my bet is you will drop a wing, 100% of the time. As mvsgas

says, this is very dejavu'ee, as I'm pretty sure I mentioned this (and many others) before.

 

Here ya go:

Be the judge, keep your eye on the FPM, it's very clear here..

Edited August 10, 2017 by SCU

[HiJack]

Here ya go:

Be the judge, keep your eye on the FPM, it's very clear here..

This is not possible in the simulated A-10C or A-10A under no configuration of the aircraft.

[David OC]

Quick video.

 

I'm looking at getting the vkb gunfighter pro, at the moment I only have the CH Fighter Stick and needed to bump up my cures here a little for more control sensitivity.

 

VKB gunfighter pro should help with this having it's 20cm (8″) Stick Extension.

 

Edit. Plus I've been out of the A-10 for awhile too and need some practice:)

 

H727utvl6rA

 

https://youtu.be/H727utvl6rA

Edited August 10, 2017 by David OC

[SCU]

Quick video.

I have updated DCS, I can view tracks now no problem, videos are good too to watch on the run.

 

So you see now what I'm talking about? I'm sure you have felt the uncommanded rolls throughout, it's there many times when you hit the choppy (not steady) tone. Of course it would be useful to have the controls indicator showing in future videos and tracks.

[David OC]

Been out of the A-10 for a bit, will try and practice and have a go on the weekend.

 

I only hit the uncommanded rolls after the video in video reset, around 1:30 as you can see, if you watch the AOA, I was trying to push the limit some and get the feel again.

 

 

.

[SCU]

I only hit the uncommanded rolls after the video in video reset, around 1:30 as you can see, if you watch the AOA, I was trying to push the limit some and get the feel again.

 

I spotted one at about 1:03, seems uncommanded I believe.

 

Anyways, if it's too hard or complex to remove or fix this behaviour in A-10C, I wonder how complex or not is it to have the A-10C behave like the A-10A which seems to have a delayed wing drop behaviour than the C?

[Vitormouraa]

I spotted one at about 1:03, seems uncommanded I believe.

 

Anyways, if it's too hard or complex to remove or fix this behaviour in A-10C, I wonder how complex or not is it to have the A-10C behave like the A-10A which seems to have a delayed wing drop behaviour than the C?

 

I had that feeling too about the A, but that's just guessing, Yo-Yo said they use the same flight model, so I'm not sure. (from my understanding)

[SCU]

I had that feeling too about the A, but that's just guessing, Yo-Yo said they use the same flight model, so I'm not sure. (from my understanding)

 

We had a talk about it earlier in this thread, someone brought it up and me & him both tested it and found it to be true. While there is no track of this, I can confirm it from my experience and the other guy's (can't remember who), but you (or anyone) can try this yourself and post a track/vid if you want.

 

Edit: had some luck and found it on the first page I clicked: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2917979&postcount=56

[Yo-Yo]

No my friend, I meant the second 11900 feet (you reached it twice, just noticed) sorry should have pointed out the time mark, it's at about 0:27, you have an aggressive right turn (almost 90°) and looking at the control indicator on the lower left I see that you never commanded it, it's right before the video ends.

 

Edit: for those who cba to go back

 

And if you take a look at the AoA indicator you can clearly see that AoA was unintentionally increased... to 17+.

Nobody's perfect. But this exception only prove the rule: as AoA was 15...16+, that is just beyond the chopped tone start, all was ok.

[SCU]

And if you take a look at the AoA indicator you can clearly see that AoA was unintentionally increased... to 17+.

Nobody's perfect. But this exception only prove the rule: as AoA was 15...16+, that is just beyond the chopped tone start, all was ok.

Is that AoA in degrees? Sorry if I missed something but I can't see the AoA indicator in the video.

But you were barely into the chopped tone, you had just gone from chopped-->steady-->chopped-->wing drop less than a second later, but I won't argue about that too much.

 

Can you tell me what you think about what I had to say here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3217697&postcount=169 ?

The pilot has chopped warning, but he increases his AoA even more and no wing drop?

Edited August 10, 2017 by SCU