A10C Refuel "Auto-pilot"

[Scaley]

At the moment safe disconnect is possible, but you have to realise that as soon as you disconnect, or the boom operator does, the boom will immediately go to the neutral position both up/down and in extension.

 

If you are high or close then you will get hit. If you are further away and/or lower than the ideal position the boom will move away from you and thus there will be no collision.

 

In order to have a safe disconnect you need to make sure that as your tanks approach full you move a little bit away and down.

[SharpeXB]

I've had trouble connecting. Or staying connected. But disconnecting has never been a problem.

 

It also seems logical that the real boom would auto disconnect. Otherwise you could either under-fill the aircraft or overfill it and spill fuel.

 

Unless Jerry Seinfeld is the boom operator

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Thisdale]

Because i understand how "anal" i'm being about this whole thing.

Made another practice session today. Still on Aerobatics 2.0.

 

Had the exact same abrupt disconnect i always get, which if i'm not careful, sends me flying.

 

First Person here:

(full screen capture from VR POV).

 

External View here:

(video compression messed up, sorry about that).

 

if you guys want to suffer, you can watch the entire twitch stream with horrible compression (i messed up the settings).

twitch.tv/thisdale

Edited September 2, 2016 by Thisdale

[SharpeXB]

Because i understand how "anal" i'm being about this whole thing.

Made another practice session today. Still on Aerobatics 2.0.

 

Had the exact same abrupt disconnect i always get, which if i'm not careful, sends me flying.

 

First Person here:

(full screen capture from VR POV).

 

External View here:

(video compression messed up, sorry about that).

 

if you guys want to suffer, you can watch the entire twitch stream with horrible compression (i messed up the settings).

twitch.tv/thisdale

It looks like your position is too low. You're looking up at the tanker, usually I see people have it where the wing roots are centered in the upper part of the canopy like in this screenshot.

When you approach the tanker it looks like you're aiming for the end of the boom and then of course it moves. Fly to the tanker and not to the boom. You should approach the tanker from below and behind. In real AAR you start 1000' below to avoid any chance of collision. I find also that approaching from below you can have a higher closing speed and then when you climb up, use that to decelerate to the tankers speed. Maybe that low position is why the boom causes that problem on disconnect.

[SCU]

As for trim and pitch when you're connected. Yeah you're always correcting. That's realistic. Why would the plane fly itself? And it's going to take on weight which will change your trim in any case.

 

I agree that this is realistic as well. The real guys I believe have the pitch trimmed nose down slightly such that they don't get a very large pitch up when throttling up.

 

Here's two good Heads Up Display videos of the real A-10s refueling, complete with pre-contact, contact and disconnect (should help with the discussion). You can see how they pitch up and down all the time.

 

 

[Thisdale]

I feel you guys are not reading what i'm writing.

 

I have no issues with connection.

 

-> I have issues with disconnection. <-

 

 

My example of a disconnection:

 

SCU's example:

 

Difference: The BOOM operator REMOVES the boom from the socket. In my experience (this is 100% of the time), the boom DOES NOT move in DCS. It becomes solid, like a brick wall.

 

On a side note: as for looking at the tanker. Well, i'm flying formation. I'm not looking at the boom. Don't mistake the camera looking "up" as looking at the boom sir. You'll also notice upon looking at the video again, that i approach the Tanker using the Fin's of the boom as reference, then drop to the Nozzle's level. I aim at the Nozzle in my HUD as connection point, because i expect(anticipate) the stupid operator will suddenly move the Boom Arm rapidly and point it directly at my face (read: the refueling entry socket).

 

 

I've looked at countless videos online. In all cases, the Boom operator removes the boom immediately upon completion of refueling procedures. And this is not what i'm observing in DCS. And it causes problems, every-single-time.

[Thisdale]

More example of the proper disconnect behavior:

[Yurgon]

Difference: The BOOM operator REMOVES the boom from the socket. In my experience (this is 100% of the time), the boom DOES NOT move in DCS. It becomes solid, like a brick wall.

 

I agree, this is pretty annoying behavior in DCS.

 

I think some of the answers were at least partly helpful however.

 

Your position during refueling was very low, and thus your view of the boom was obstructed.

 

What the DCS boom operator does upon disconnect is return the straw (is that the correct term? dunno) to the center position so that it shows green where it extends out the boom.

 

It was hard to see but obvious from what happened that you were rather close to the boom, and so the straw was retreated into the boom a good bit before the disconnect occurred. The moment the operator disconnected you, the boom was forced to go through your aircraft. Yes, this shouldn't happen, but it's how it works in DCS right now.

 

I would advise a position a bit higher; the image SharpeXB posted looks like a pretty good reference. From there you can easily see the boom, and then the next task is to keep a little further away so that the straw extends away from the boom. That way, when the disconnect occurs, the boom retracts away from your nose instead of extracting right through it. ;)

 

Just to reiterate, this is a workaround for somehwat unfinished DCS behavior. But your position was really too low, you should work on that in any case. :smartass:

[SharpeXB]

It's hard to notice but there are a set of lights on the bottom of the tanker that help guide you into position, especially at night

so here's what the ideal position should look like from the cockpit

[Scaley]

 

 

 

As mentioned at the point of disconnect you are in a close situation (i.e the boom is more than 50% compressed). When the disconnect happens it will immediately extend to the 50% out position. If you were further away then it would immediately retract. Just aim to be a bit further aft as the disconnect approaches and you won't have a problem.

[Thisdale]

Hey guys,

 

I appreciate the comments about how to become better at refueling and the proper position to have.

However, the procedure for disconnect is not supported in DCS (i spoke to an active pilot two days ago). The proper behavior upon disconnect, from a BOOM-operated tanker, is for the operator to remove the boom from the plane and assure a safe distance for the plane to depart.

 

As mentioned in my earlier comment, the boom in DCS returns to its pre-contact position immediately. So if you are done refueling and in a higher position, you're done for: which is not proper procedure.

 

This is not a big deal if by yourself. I just did some refueling with 3 other planes in formation. It wasn't a very nice experience. And there was no wind. And it was day-time. Now picture a less-friendly environment to refuel and the plane was clean...

 

Here are bugs i have identified and tested:

 

Boom Disconnection

On [RefuelComplete], Boom & straw go immediately to [PreContact] position.

 

The proper behavior should be:

 

On [RefuelComplete], Boom & straw go to [FullyRetracted] position.

Followed by [PreContact] position.

 

This leaves room for the pilot to get the message, move his aircraft out of the way and proceed with mission.

 

Boom operation during Turn

 

If the A10c is connected at time of Turn, the refueling mechanic works as intended.

In other words. If you are receiving fuel and the Tanker initiates the turn, if you can follow, connection remains.

If the A10c is NOT connected at time of Turn, the Boom operator doesn't maneuver the boom and connection cannot occur.

In other words. If you are NOT connected, the Tanker initiates its turn and you try to connect, the boom will not try to connect. You will have to wait for the turn to be completed for the Boom Operator to "Wake Up".

 

 

I will fill that in the bugs in the appropriate forum section.

[SharpeXB]

Here's my AAR video for what it's worth

 

 

Yes, upon the disconnect the boom just goes straight back to it's original position rather than withdrawing like it should. But that doesn't cause any "problem" in the game like damage to your aircraft or even a collision, looking at the external it actually goes right through your fuselage but doesn't bump or damage the plane.

Not a real game breaker but it would be cool if the animation was correct. It seems like it's possible to bump the boom and have it knock your plane around when going in to connect, but upon disconnection if you're in the correct position that doesn't happen.

[Sierra99]

It's hard to notice but there are a set of lights on the bottom of the tanker that help guide you into position, especially at night

so here's what the ideal position should look like from the cockpit

 

In reality, those light only operate and follow the movement of the boom while in contact and following disconnect. The Boom Operator does have the ability to manually activate the U/D F/A Lights with toggle switches to guide the receiver prior to contact.

 

Sierra

[doright]

Hey guys,

If the A10c is NOT connected at time of Turn, the Boom operator doesn't maneuver the boom and connection cannot occur.

 

I just tried this in 1.5.4.55... multiplier. I was able to initiate contact during a turn. Disconnected twice and reconnected without a problem. There was one pause once before the boom returned to its usual position.

 

I have noticed in this version that on disconnect when full (refueling complete message) the boom does seem to bump my nose up.

[Thisdale]

I just tried this in 1.5.4.55... multiplier. I was able to initiate contact during a turn. Disconnected twice and reconnected without a problem. There was one pause once before the boom returned to its usual position.

 

I have noticed in this version that on disconnect when full (refueling complete message) the boom does seem to bump my nose up.

 

In my last 2 online sessions (aerobatics), i could not make contact with the Boom; it would not move from the pre-contact position while in a turn.

 

Very strange.

[Thisdale]

Retried tonight with a friend.

 

Both couldn't make contact with the Boom on a turn.

The boom stays stiff and doesn't "seek" to connect.

The second the turn action is complete (from the tanker), the boom "Wakes up" and contact can be made again.

[doright]

Retried tonight with a friend.

 

Both couldn't make contact with the Boom on a turn.

The boom stays stiff and doesn't "seek" to connect.

The second the turn action is complete (from the tanker), the boom "Wakes up" and contact can be made again.

 

I've noticed if you come in high the boom doesn't respond at all and is rigid. Straight or turning. It seems like you have to start out at or below the initial position of the nozzle. After the boom moves, then you can move into normal position and it will move around to align with you.