Anyone see this yet? New F-15 as stop-gap for JSF

[D-Scythe]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/10/05/Navigation/177/209633/%e2%80%98Not+your+father%e2%80%99s+Oldsmobile%e2%80%99+Boeing+F-15E%2b+Super+Eagle.html

 

The F-15E+ package extends both weapons and sensor capabilities, he adds. Equipped with the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System and a yet-to-be-determined active electronically scanned array radar, the aircraft would have smart weapons carriage capability on up to 19 stations. Advanced weapons options include LJDAM, Brimstone, HSSW and an extended-range, powered small diameter bomb.

 

Offered with an enhanced electro-optic sensor suite including navigation and targeting pods, as well as an infrared search and track system embedded in the pylon, the Super Eagle would also have a more sophisticated self-protection suite. Comprising an emitter locating system, ALE-50 towed decoy, and AAR-57 missile warning system along with jammers, chaff-flare and radar-warning receivers, the make-over is designed to allow the Super Eagle to “survive in a modern high-threat environment”, he adds.

 

And we still don't have an F-15E yet.

[Pilotasso]

hmmm...errr... sumethings wrong...60 million per JSF?!!! wheres the affordability in that?!!

Last time I checked was something closer to the 30-40 million range.

 

59 million for an upgraded F-15 seeems still a bit too excessive considering that it wont see service as long as the F-35 will. Its probably based on the F-15K and F-15kS configs, wich would have explained how Boeing has funded this proposal. I wouldnt count on recycling 3rd gen airframes for much longer anyway.

[Force_Feedback]

You can have a joint in an F-35, the F-15's a/c can't handle all the smoke.

[golfsierra2]

hmmm...errr... sumethings wrong...60 million per JSF?!!! wheres the affordability in that?!!

Last time I checked was something closer to the 30-40 million range.

 

59 million for an upgraded F-15 seeems still a bit too excessive considering that it wont see service as long as the F-35 will. Its probably based on the F-15K and F-15kS configs, wich would have explained how Boeing has funded this proposal. I wouldnt count on recycling 3rd gen airframes for much longer anyway.

 

60 million is not too high. See the Typhoon for example:

"One disadvantage in the Typhoon's $58 million price."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm

[Pilotasso]

^^^^not exacly affordable either as your quot explicity shows, and then the typhoon is there to beat everything short of the F-22. That article must be wrong because not only that price tage puts an end to one of its fundamental design requirments but it also overlaps and hops over other fighters designed with more ambitious aims.

[BladeLWS]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/10/05/Navigation/177/209633/%e2%80%98Not+your+father%e2%80%99s+Oldsmobile%e2%80%99+Boeing+F-15E%2b+Super+Eagle.html

 

 

 

And we still don't have an F-15E yet.

 

What do you mean? We do have an F-15E, the Strike Eagle.

 

[Skwurl]

hmmm...errr... sumethings wrong...60 million per JSF?!!! wheres the affordability in that?!!

 

Nothing is wrong with the numbers. New technology cost money.

 

If you think 60 million is too much, you would probably faint if you saw the F-22A pricetag - a cool $200 million per aircraft. Not to mention the B2 which sits at 2.2 billion.

 

And we still don't have an F-15E yet.

 

Yes we...well you...do (Canadian chap here).

 

The F-15E Strike Eagle is the 2 seat variant of the F-15. The article you posted is talking about the F-15E+ Super Eagle.

[D-Scythe]

Um, I was fairly certain that I was talking about not having an F-15E in LOMAC...

[Skwurl]

Um, I was fairly certain that I was talking about not having an F-15E in LOMAC...

 

Well, where would that be evident in your post?

 

All you said was 'and we don't even have an F-15E yet.' after posting an article that has nothing to do with lock on. Also, I wasn't the only one on this thread that didn't know you were talking about the game.

 

Sorry for assuming.

[Pilotasso]

Nothing is wrong with the numbers. New technology cost money.

 

If you think 60 million is too much, you would probably faint if you saw the F-22A pricetag - a cool $200 million per aircraft. Not to mention the B2 which sits at 2.2 billion.

 

 

 

Yes we...well you...do (Canadian chap here).

 

The F-15E Strike Eagle is the 2 seat variant of the F-15. The article you posted is talking about the F-15E+ Super Eagle.

 

 

Well the F-35 is suposed to be the backbone of many airforcers using the F-16 wich will replace. Just to serve as example, each F-16 in my country has cost 12 million dollars each. 1 F-35 costs as much as 5 F-16's thats not right IMHO. Worse, F-15C costs 30-40 million, and the price tag I seen for the JSF is of the same magnitude as the C Eagle wich by itself seemed excessive already.

[D-Scythe]

Yes we...well you...do (Canadian chap here).

 

The F-15E Strike Eagle is the 2 seat variant of the F-15. The article you posted is talking about the F-15E+ Super Eagle.

 

First of all, the F-15E is not just a 2 seat variant of the F-15. See the italics and bolding? It is soooooooo much more :smartass:

 

And secondly, Canadian here too :thumbup:

[p_o_d_2_2]

is there a way to tell the difference between a strike eagle and a normal 2 seat eagle by looking at them?

[Skwurl]

First of all, the F-15E is not just a 2 seat variant of the F-15. See the italics and bolding? It is soooooooo much more :smartass:

 

And secondly, Canadian here too :thumbup:

 

Right you are.

 

The F-15E Strike Eagle is one bad mofo. I would even go as far as saying it's arguably one of the most effective fighter aircraft in service.

[Camoman]

There are lots of figure's for what the JSF will cost when it finally begins to become available. The hoped for cost at the beginning of the program was about US$30-35 mill. By now the reports are that the cost is up to $45-60 and could push $70 mill.

I have read this in a few places and wiill try find links if you want. In the end though we should all have expected blowouts in the cost since we all knew it was going to run overshedule. As costs raise numbers required will most probably also drop and this will push up the cost further again.

 

Another point I have seen is that according to:

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Fighter-05.pdf

 

"The Selected Acquisition Report to Congress for

December 2004 covering the JSF program

indicates that the average unit flyaway cost across

all JSF variants for a total build of 2458 aircraft is

US$87.11 million each. This cost would be

achieved some time after aircraft number 1,200

rolls off the production line." (pg3/4, top right)

 

Source SAR Report: (by dividing total cost by number of units- US$104.4m, so this varies from 87??):

 

http://www.acq.osd.mil/ara/am/sar/2004-DEC-SST.pdf

 

"The total program cost estimates provided in the SARs include research and development, procurement, military construction, and acquisition-related operation and maintenance. Total program costs reflect actual costs to date as well as future anticipated costs. All estimates include anticipated inflation allowances."

 

So could this be correct. That is a very high cost to be anticipated for the program when it still has a few more years before the first production run even begins...

 

And the latest available SAR (Jun06) gives a cost of $US112.47m per unit. I understand that this includes all costs so the way i see it is that this is a more accurate representation of cost to the US for the aquisition of the JSF than the numbers per plane figures that float round from article to article.

 

If anyone knows more in depth about the SARs and what they exactly mean then speak now...(although they do quote what they mean as I have quoted above).

[hitman]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/10/05/Navigation/177/209633/%e2%80%98Not+your+father%e2%80%99s+Oldsmobile%e2%80%99+Boeing+F-15E%2b+Super+Eagle.html

 

 

 

And we still don't have an F-15E yet.

 

[Skwurl]

Well the F-35 is suposed to be the backbone of many airforcers using the F-16 wich will replace. Just to serve as example, each F-16 in my country has cost 12 million dollars each. 1 F-35 costs as much as 5 F-16's thats not right IMHO. Worse, F-15C costs 30-40 million, and the price tag I seen for the JSF is of the same magnitude as the C Eagle wich by itself seemed excessive already.

 

The JSF will be the backbone for airforces that are willing to pay for the technology. Next generation military hardware is expensive to develop and in return makes it expensive to purchase.

 

The F-16A/B that Portugal uses cost roughly 14.6 million dollars back in 1998 - it's also pretty out of date compared to other modern fighters and other block versions of the F16. Take Israel for example. There F16I variant cost 70 million per unit.

 

Same jet...upgraded technology.

 

There's no way around it. If you want high tech controls and weapon delivery, you have to pay for it.

[Pilotasso]

The F-16A/B that Portugal uses cost roughly 14.6 million dollars back in 1998 - it's also pretty out of date compared to other modern fighters and other block versions of the F16. Take Israel for example. There F16I variant cost 70 million per unit.

 

 

 

Actualy 7 million on the delivery configuration of block 15 ADF and another 6 million on the MLU Block 50 standard upgrade kits. Lets not forget were talking about light fighters here. I dont think its logical to replace light fighters that are more expensive than the best we produce in europe with 50 million per Eurofighter.

 

BTW although not a 4rth gen stealth fighter I wouldnt discount the ability to fire the AMRAAM, JDAM and JSOW and to use fighter to fighter dataling link obsolete just yet. ;)

 

Doing a search on google returns me conflicting data ranging from FY94 at 28 million up to 100 million. That inflaction just goes on the rampage heh?

 

P.S. just corrected those awfull grammar errors I made on your quote. Could you update it please? :)

[Skwurl]

Actualy 7 million on the delivery configuration of block 15 ADF and another 6 million on the MLU Block 50 standard upgrade kits. Lets not forget were talking about light fighters here. I dont think its logical to replace light fighters that are more expensive than the best we produce in europe with 50 million per Eurofighter.

 

BTW although not a 4rth gen stelth fighter I wouldnt discount the ability to fire the AMRAAM, JDAM and JSOW and to use fighter to fighter dataling link obsolete just yet. ;)

 

Doing a search on google returns me conflicting data ranging from FY94 at 28 million up to 100 million. That inflaction just goes on the rampage heh?

 

P.S. just corrected those awfull grammar errors I made on your quote. Could you update it please? :)

 

Updated...:thumbup:

 

Don't get me wrong...the F16 Block 50 is insanely capable.

 

I wouldn't even dream of doubting the vipers ability - she's a monster. I'm just saying that there is a steep price to pay for current technology...as seen in Israel's F15I.

[Pilotasso]

Thx :)

 

well any plane will escalate easely in price over their basic configurations. Like Japan did for their F-2 fighters Israel stuffed their fighters with lots of "good to have" toys wich efectively transforms the F-16 light fighters into something else, not quite the original concept. F-35A is the basic configuration, btw is indeed mentioned to cost arround 30 million in every press I got wich is not exactly cheap but clearly shows this plane does not cost its weight in gold. :)

 

Still would like to see if anyone could come up with a more updated figure for the JSF.

[Camoman]

Thx :)

 

Still would like to see if anyone could come up with a more updated figure for the JSF.

 

Well I found another article which gives cost indications. Just bought the Oct 06 Australian Aviation magazine the other day and it has a good article about the gap in fighter capability australia potentially faces. Besides that it mentions that:

 

" When asked how much the F-35 will cost, Lockheed Martin officials have consistently quoted an average unit 2002 dollar cost for the CTOL F-35A of US$45m and US$55m for the more complex F-35B STOVL and F-35C carrier version."

 

If you do the maths using dollar inflation of 3%/year which is what I have been told is the standard rate.

 

The 2008 dollar cost off the line will be around US$53.7m for the F-35A.

 

This doesn't include all the development and support costs and stated in my previous post which bring it up to $100m.

 

Aside from this it is predicted by some that by the time the RAAF is ready for purchase post 2012 the unit cost could push A$115m off the line due to all the future upgrades which are planned and infaltion, etc.

 

So if you want a raw off the line 2008 cost - US$50 mill+, but if you want a figure which includes all the costs the US government has and will have put toward the program by the time of purchase in 2008 (hopefully) it will push US$100m.

[Kuky]

hmmm...errr... sumethings wrong...60 million per JSF?!!! wheres the affordability in that?!! Last time I checked was something closer to the 30-40 million range.

 

Inflation I guess :megalol: naaa just kidding :music_whistling:

[Force_Feedback]

Yes, the fact that the dollar plunged a bit, may account for +5 mln., but not a 100% increase in price. The JSF sounded very, very nice, but it gets worse every day. Oh well, at least it's better than that F-15dfgdfgdfgdfgdfg or whatever for its role.

[Pilotasso]

Omg then F-35 will cost nearly as much as the raptor...:wassat:

 

Its a bit ironical that a stop gap fighter has to be itself stop gap'ed with another plane...1 generation behind...

This makes a valid option to purchase the Eurofighter instead, to replace our F-16's or maybe the gripen, but its too weak to improve on the falcon in every aspect. Rafale is out of the question due to politics and technical reasons.

[51GRIZZLY]

Posted by Pilotasso:

Its a bit ironical that a stop gap fighter has to be itself stop gap'ed with another plane...1 generation behind...

 

LOL !! .... Good point there :D

[britgliderpilot]

is there a way to tell the difference between a strike eagle and a normal 2 seat eagle by looking at them?

 

Depends how closely you can look ;)

 

The "normal" two seat Eagle is an ordinary air-superiority Eagle with a longer canopy, a rear seat, and a very minimal rear cockpit. Flight controls and some dials, that's about it.

 

 

At a minimum . . . . . the Strike Eagle has bulges for more fuel, different engines which IIRC you can spot at the tail, the LANTIRN targeting pod, and a more more sophisticated rear cockpit including proper MFDs.

 

In general the F-15E just looks chubbier than an F-15D.