beryoza question

[fitness88]

1. When I have a primary threat [orange direction indicator lights up] I always see just below it a green dot which is supposed to be the indicator for a secondary threat. Why does the green dot always light up with the primary threat light?
   
2. Also When I get a secondary threat green dot light up by itself occasionally I do not see the corresponding secondary threat type light up. Why is that, isn't the threat type light supposed to light when the secondary threat lights up?
   
3. What is the maximum amount of secondary threats that can light up?
   

Thank you.

Edited November 26, 2016 by fitness88

[cthulhu68]

I think its just making it easy to see which is primary or secondary. Primary target will get round orange and green light to light up along with orange oval above threat type. Secondary targets don't get orange circle or oval to light up, just the green lights. Page 15 SU-25T manual shows it working like that.

Edited November 26, 2016 by cthulhu68

[fitness88]

Yes I read the manual as well and saw a video but nothing answered my questions.

[red_coreSix]

The SPO-15 is a hybrid digital/analog system and can process a huge amount of targets but will eventually run out of lights to display them. In this case the maximum number of secondary targets displayed would correspond to the maximum number of lights available.

[Ironhand]

1. When I have a primary threat [orange direction indicator lights up] I always see just below it a green dot which is supposed to be the indicator for a secondary threat. Why does the green dot always light up with the primary threat light?
   
2. Also When I get a secondary threat green dot light up by itself occasionally I do not see the corresponding secondary threat type light up. Why is that, isn't the threat type light supposed to light when the secondary threat lights up?
   
3. What is the maximum amount of secondary threats that can light up?
   

Thank you.

 

1) As already mentioned, the green lights are the threat bearing lights. Additionally, the threat that the system determines is the primary threat also receives an orange light. So there will always be a green light on the primary threat's bearing.

 

2) Not sure why that should be happening. First of all, one threat will always be the primary. Is what you're seeing perhaps the decaying signal after the signal is lost just before it disappears entirely? Or does it continue for a long time?

 

3) As many as you have lights for.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ironhand

[fitness88]

1) As already mentioned, the green lights are the threat bearing lights. Additionally, the threat that the system determines is the primary threat also receives an orange light. So there will always be a green light on the primary threat's bearing.

 

2) Not sure why that should be happening. First of all, one threat will always be the primary. Is what you're seeing perhaps the decaying signal after the signal is lost just before it disappears entirely? Or does it continue for a long time?

 

3) As many as you have lights for.

 

#1 now understood

#2 it continues for a long time [this doesn't happen all the time, I'll post a photo next time I see it]

#3 As for secondary threats, is there no quick way to know which secondary threat light corresponds to which threat type when there are multiple secondary threats?

 

Do you use RWS mode filter [RShift-R] ever to remove all emitters operating

in acquisition mode?

Edited November 27, 2016 by fitness88

[cthulhu68]

1. 
    
   
2. Also When I get a secondary threat green dot light up by itself occasionally I do not see the corresponding secondary threat type light up. Why is that, isn't the threat type light supposed to light when the secondary threat lights up?
   

.

This could be because primary and secondary are the same threat type.

[Ironhand]

This could be because primary and secondary are the same threat type.

:) Ah! Of course!

[fitness88]

OK, thanks all for helping to put this together!

[fitness88]

Sometimes 1 secondary threat is indicated by 2 threat bearing lights next to each other which indicates the bearing is in the middle of the lights [ie. green dot at 10 degrees and a green dot at 30 degrees = bearing 20 degrees].

How do you know if it's 1 secondary threat indicated by 2 bearing lights next to each other indicating the bearing is in the middle of the lights or 2 individual secondary threats one at 10 degrees and 1 at 30 degrees using the same secondary threat type ie. interceptor?

Of course if they were different threat types then you would see 2 different threat types light up.

Edited November 27, 2016 by fitness88

[Ironhand]

Sometimes 1 secondary threat is indicated by 2 threat bearing lights next to each other which indicates the bearing is in the middle of the lights [ie. green dot at 10 degrees and a green dot at 30 degrees = bearing 20 degrees].

How do you know if it's 1 secondary threat indicated by 2 bearing lights next to each other indicating the bearing is in the middle of the lights or 2 individual secondary threats one at 10 degrees and 1 at 30 degrees using the same secondary threat type?

Of course if they were different threat types then you would see 2 different threat types light up.

You don't. And, in most cases, that's more information than you need to know. You know where the primary threat is and its threat type. The secondary threat or threats are on the general direction indicated on the Beriosa. Whether it's one or two makes little difference unless they're airborne. If they are, and close enough to pose a threat, you should be seeing them on your radar as well assuming they're not toward your rear.

[cthulhu68]

These RWR's aren't perfect. Keep in mind you could have 3 SAM's in front of you at 12:00 but since they're all same threat type and in same direction you might only see a primary threat light up.

[fitness88]

I understand what you mean by too much info...however one bit of info I'd like to have without needing to turn on active radar is IFF as with the F-15.

 

Thanks.

[Ironhand]

I understand what you mean by too much info...however one bit of info I'd like to have without needing to turn on active radar is IFF as with the F-15.

 

Thanks.

:) Well...that's a whole 'nother issue...

[fitness88]

:) Well...that's a whole 'nother issue...

 

I hear you...

 

Is there info giving the relative distances for each threat type based on what the "light strip" is showing?

 

Here is something I found, not sure how accurate it is.

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by fitness88

[Ironhand]

I hear you...

 

Is there info giving the relative distances for each threat type based on what the "light strip" is showing?

 

Here is something I found, not sure how accurate it is.

 

[ATTACH]152408[/ATTACH]

The light strip indicates the strength of the primary threat's radar signal. For most threats, you don't need to start being concerned until the signal strength reaches roughly the 12 o'clock position. The closer it gets to 9 o'clock, the more concerned you have to be.

 

EDIT: BTW, that diagram looks like it would be more or less accurate for most fighter aircraft radars.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ironhand

[Frostie]

I hear you...

 

Is there info giving the relative distances for each threat type based on what the "light strip" is showing?

 

Here is something I found, not sure how accurate it is.

 

[ATTACH]152408[/ATTACH]

 

That is a very rough guide on F-15 and Flanker radar strength.

 

Check these out tested by the 159th a while ago. Though I think the M2k is different these days.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=331701&postcount=10

Hi JEFX,

 

I like you was curious about the signal strength for different AC that why I did the tests that my 159th team mate (Viper) directed you to. Its a bit of reverse engineering and is only ment to be a guide. The big caveat to using this data is you have to be sure what AC your up against, otherwise you could be in for a surprise.

 

Here is the data laid out around the RWR.

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Frostie

[fitness88]

Thanks Frostie for this great info, I'll be putting this on my kneeboard!

What does it mean "L:radar lock" in relationship to the distances?

Would you also have distances for the surface to air threats?

Edited November 27, 2016 by fitness88

[DarkFire]

Thanks Frostie for this great info, I'll be putting this on my kneeboard!

What does it mean "L:radar lock" in relationship to the distances?

 

I think that represents the typical lock distance of the radar in question.

 

Frostie: Thanks very much for posting these, very useful. :thumbup:

[fitness88]

I think that represents the typical lock distance of the radar in question.

 

Frostie: Thanks very much for posting these, very useful. :thumbup:

 

 

The L: on the range scale indicates the distance the respective plane can lock you up...I think this is what it means. However in a Mig it's hard to know the plane type that you see on the RWR.

Edited November 28, 2016 by fitness88

[Ironhand]

I guess I'm curious about this fascination with range per signal strength. I'm going to be a bit provocative here and say that it provides you with no useful information. How far away he is doesn't matter because its meaning changes with all the normal variables: missile platform, missile type, altitude(s), airspeed(s), etc. Once the signal strength reaches the left side of the dial, you need to be paying much closer attention. If it reaches the 9 o'clock position (4 on the dial) you need to be on high alert because, if there isn't already a missile in the air, there will be soon...unless the missile coming your way has extremely short legs in which case you might not see a launch until you reach position 6 or 7 on the dial's left side. It's the strength that matters, not the distance. EDIT: (Distance is a further calculation that provides no additional useful information.)

Edited November 28, 2016 by Ironhand

[fitness88]

I guess I'm curious about this fascination with range per signal strength. I'm going to be a bit provocative here and say that it provides you with no useful information. How far away he is doesn't matter because its meaning changes with all the normal variables: missile platform, missile type, altitude(s), airspeed(s), etc. Once the signal strength reaches the left side of the dial, you need to be paying much closer attention. If it reaches the 9 o'clock position (4 on the dial) you need to be on high alert because, if there isn't already a missile in the air, there will be soon...unless the missile coming your way has extremely short legs in which case you might not see a launch until you reach position 6 or 7 on the dial's left side. It's the strength that matters, not the distance. EDIT: (Distance is a further calculation that provides no additional useful information.)

 

Interesting... Since the light strip works off a function of the radar emission and not the distance, is there a big enough difference between planes' emissions that you could have one type of plane be 1 o'clock on the light strip, 5nm from you and have another plane at 9 o'clock on the light strip but because it may have a stronger radar emission its distance could be 20nm? In the latter case whatever weapon he fires it's still going to be further away and less dangerous by its greater distance.

Edited November 28, 2016 by fitness88

[Ironhand]

Interesting... Since the light strip works off a function of the radar emission and not the distance, is there a big enough difference between planes' emissions that you could have one type of plane be 1 o'clock on the light strip, 5nm from you and have another plane at 9 o'clock on the light strip but because it may have a stronger radar emission its distance could be 20nm? In the latter case whatever weapon he fires it's still going to be further away and less dangerous by its greater distance.

Depends on the weapon. An AIM-120 has a farther reach than an AIM-7 given the same parameters. Which is more dangerous depends on the situation. At high altitudes, an F-15 packing AIM-120s can launch as early as 10 or 11 o'clock on the dial and you won't get a launch warning to make it the primary. So the primary could remain that 1 o'clock source right up until the time that AIM-120 to your 9 0'clock goes active giving you a "holy shit!" moment.

 

EDIT: Just want to add, upon rereading your post, there is a big enough difference. Just look at the images Frostie posted. But given two aircraft in search mode, the Beriosa is going to give primary ranking to the stronger signal. Keep in mind that aircraft with very strong radars can carry weapons with a very long reach. Otherwise there's no reason for the extra weight and cost.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Ironhand

[Frostie]

I guess I'm curious about this fascination with range per signal strength. I'm going to be a bit provocative here and say that it provides you with no useful information. How far away he is doesn't matter because its meaning changes with all the normal variables: missile platform, missile type, altitude(s), airspeed(s), etc. Once the signal strength reaches the left side of the dial, you need to be paying much closer attention. If it reaches the 9 o'clock position (4 on the dial) you need to be on high alert because, if there isn't already a missile in the air, there will be soon...unless the missile coming your way has extremely short legs in which case you might not see a launch until you reach position 6 or 7 on the dial's left side. It's the strength that matters, not the distance. EDIT: (Distance is a further calculation that provides no additional useful information.)

Firstly signal strength compared with radar contact will give you an idea of what type of threat you're facing which gives you an idea of how you're going to proceed.

Also you can gather better SA from radar signals approaching your flank while you chase a bandit or from approaching bandits while you are tied up in a merge, combined with good SA building and communication you should have a much clearer picture of when it is time to get out of dodge.

 

To add to that estimating range with strength is excellent for notching and hiding from bandits when you don't want to be seen, combined with ECM and varying altitudes you can make yourself disappear in a crowded environment.

[Ironhand]

Firstly signal strength compared with radar contact will give you an idea of what type of threat you're facing which gives you an idea of how you're going to proceed.

Also you can gather better SA from radar signals approaching your flank while you chase a bandit or from approaching bandits while you are tied up in a merge, combined with good SA building and communication you should have a much clearer picture of when it is time to get out of dodge.

 

To add to that estimating range with strength is excellent for notching and hiding from bandits when you don't want to be seen, combined with ECM and varying altitudes you can make yourself disappear in a crowded environment.

 

:) Well.... again, what's the point of translating Beriosa signal strengths into ranges for various aircraft? According to your scenario, you'll know the range once you have it on radar. And until you have it on radar you don't know know whether the Beriosa is indicating a fighter with a strong radar that's far away or a weak one that's close by. So any translation is useless.

 

And, if you should have foreknowledge that the threat in question is an AMRAAM toting F-15, what difference does knowing the distance make? If you're both at high altitude, for instance, you can have an AMRAAM coming in your direction when the signal strength reaches the 10 or 11o'clock position depending on the situation. Knowing the range the signal strength indicates makes no difference.

 

As far as notching is concerned what, other than bearing, can you glean from the Beriosa that would help?

 

We are making the Beriosa's interpretation much more complex than it needs to be. It's not a one-stop-shop instrument but it seems, sometimes, we're trying to pretend it is. It needs to be used in conjunction with active sensors to achieve maximum benefit. Either that or AWACS/EWR.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Ironhand