Super 530 and Mirage performance against SU-27

[mrsteel]

I've noticed that when facing AI opponents, the Super 530 has a much much higher probability of getting a kill over the R-27ER, which i can almost never get a kill with (i have one confirmed in singleplayer against a Mirage/F-15 in the series of tests i've done). Is the R-27ER really this bad? I've also noticed that the jammer drastically reduces the range of the Su-27's radar lock, evening out the fight a bit, but even when not jamming the 27ER repeatedly fails to hit, when the Super530 is rarely evaded. And finally, after taking all this and the fact the mirage now has IR Launch warning, into consideration what do you think would win online against players beginning in BVR combat, any altitude, head on.

[Zeus67]

I've noticed that when facing AI opponents, the Super 530 has a much much higher probability of getting a kill over the R-27ER, which i can almost never get a kill with (i have one confirmed in singleplayer against a Mirage/F-15 in the series of tests i've done). Is the R-27ER really this bad? I've also noticed that the jammer drastically reduces the range of the Su-27's radar lock, evening out the fight a bit, but even when not jamming the 27ER repeatedly fails to hit, when the Super530 is rarely evaded. And finally, after taking all this and the fact the mirage now has IR Launch warning, into consideration what do you think would win online against players beginning in BVR combat, any altitude, head on.

 

Just an observation the DDM is optimized for threats below and to the side of the aircraft. There is a huge blind spot in the rear, and of course in the front. Also, any launch from above will be undetected because the wings are blocking the sensors eyes.

[zerO_crash]

Not to derail the thread, but I can at least confirm that there is something seriously wrong with the targeting of Super 530D and Magic 550 II against the Huey.

 

Was flying on a server against one, and believe it or not, all launcher within parameters, and closer to the target than max range (certainly not too close), and all four missed. Got him with guns, after rearming, I found the same guy again flying in his huey, and without any flares or so, the missiles simply refuse to turn on him, and that with positive lock. Not against the sun, or anything else that could interfere.

[mrsteel]

I am beginning to wonder if this is an AI thing, because i've been playing online, and having an equal amount of successes and failures with the 27er, it is far more useful in multiplayer than single player. And if i watch the enemy ai while dogfighting it repeatedly pulls between -2 and 5-6 g's at a ridiculous pace, i think the way the ai flies could be our problem.

[red_coreSix]

Not to derail the thread, but I can at least confirm that there is something seriously wrong with the targeting of Super 530D and Magic 550 II against the Huey.

 

Was flying on a server against one, and believe it or not, all launcher within parameters, and closer to the target than max range (certainly not too close), and all four missed. Got him with guns, after rearming, I found the same guy again flying in his huey, and without any flares or so, the missiles simply refuse to turn on him, and that with positive lock. Not against the sun, or anything else that could interfere.

 

That is a problem with all missiles not just the mirages. You'll find it only occurring when the helicopter is slow because the missiles have problems tracking at slow speeds. It is supposed to be this way I think.

[zerO_crash]

That is a problem with all missiles not just the mirages. You'll find it only occurring when the helicopter is slow because the missiles have problems tracking at slow speeds. It is supposed to be this way I think.

 

Hasn`t been like that before, and I wouldn`t want to think, but rather be 100% sure. Why should exactly a slow-moving target be a problem for an IR guided missile? Certainly none. As for radar guided, it could be the matter of Doppler being fooled (filter will typically reject everything below 100-80 km/h), but even so, for such an advanced radar, one could argue whether this would be a problem or not. And if you are able to detect them, then it speaks against having a problem with locking them on. ;)

 

On some other platforms I fly, this has never been a problem. Neither has it been on M2000C until the last patch. Question is if intentional (if so, why?) or if merely a bug.

[Rlaxoxo]

If you die from a mirage in a bvr combat with an Su-27 you need more practice

[red_coreSix]

Hasn`t been like that before, and I wouldn`t want to think, but rather be 100% sure. Why should exactly a slow-moving target be a problem for an IR guided missile? Certainly none. As for radar guided, it could be the matter of Doppler being fooled (filter will typically reject everything below 100-80 km/h), but even so, for such an advanced radar, one could argue whether this would be a problem or not. And if you are able to detect them, then it speaks against having a problem with locking them on. ;)

 

On some other platforms I fly, this has never been a problem. Neither has it been on M2000C until the last patch. Question is if intentional (if so, why?) or if merely a bug.

 

Strange, I've had this problem in the F-15 and Su-27 for ages. A slow moving target will be hard to track for an older (spin-scan) IR seekers because if the LOS-rate is very slow, as it will be against a slow-helicopter, the seeker won't see much of the target as they tend to be not very sensitive for a target that is centered in the seekers FOV (the missile should fly a wobbling flight-path).

For radar seekers the problem is first of all that the helicopters body itself will be in the doppler notch at low speeds. But you theoretically still have the blades to track on, in practice seekers (especially older ones) have problems with that though as the doppler returns are rapidly changing from positive to negative (some older radars, not designed for tracking helicopters, might reject such a return as doppler noise-jamming).

Edit: There might also be a difference in what the host radar and the SARH seeker sees (the radar having a lot more processing power and a bigger array/higher power output).

 

If you die from a mirage in a bvr combat with an Su-27 you need more practice

 

I disagree, the Super 530D is very close to the R-27ER in terms of range. If you're up against a mirage pilot that knows what he's doing you'll have a hard time.

Edited December 3, 2016 by red_coreSix

[mia389]

 

I disagree, the Super 530D is very close to the R-27ER in terms of range. If you're up against a mirage pilot that knows what he's doing you'll have a hard time.

 

The ER is alot easier to notch as well. I find the 530 very hard to notch unless the server is laggy :)

[mrsteel]

In my honest opinion, i believe the super 530 is better than r27er, from singleplayer experience, not entirely sure if this is how it is on multiplayer or in real life, can someone give me some insight on that? (besides the fact that the 27ER has more range)

[Oceandar]

In my honest opinion, i believe the super 530 is better than r27er, from singleplayer experience, not entirely sure if this is how it is on multiplayer or in real life, can someone give me some insight on that? (besides the fact that the 27ER has more range)

Not that just in SP. Its better in MP also. Honestly I would say its the most lethal SARH in DCS World universe. The R27ER/R sometimes loves eating chaff and arguably easy to defeat.

[Frostie]

Not that just in SP. Its better in MP also. Honestly I would say its the most lethal SARH in DCS World universe. The R27ER/R sometimes loves eating chaff and arguably easy to defeat.

 

Add to that the 530D in DCS has insane acceleration and very low drag.

[jojo]

You can use TacView, and you will see that Super 530D doesn't accelerate faster than R-27ER.

The speed profile is close, but it ends sooner for Super 530D because of missile's lifetime.

 

And even with supersonic launch it doesn't reach the claimed top speed of M4.5.

[Oceandar]

You can use TacView, and you will see that Super 530D doesn't accelerate faster than R-27ER.

The speed profile is close, but it ends sooner for Super 530D because of missile's lifetime.

 

And even with supersonic launch it doesn't reach the claimed top speed of M4.5.

See Frostie post above : "very low drag".

 

Funny thing is the 530D kinda remind me of the old Flanker 2.5 missiles. One of simhq editor at that time (that was Cat if my memory serves me well) said that Flanker 2.5 missiles just like "bolt of Zeus"

Edited December 4, 2016 by Oceandar

[protea1]

LOL!!!

[Frostie]

You can use TacView, and you will see that Super 530D doesn't accelerate faster than R-27ER.

The speed profile is close, but it ends sooner for Super 530D because of missile's lifetime.

 

And even with supersonic launch it doesn't reach the claimed top speed of M4.5.

 

The same isn't true up against its comparable missiles the AIM-7 and R-27R rather than the extra burn, larger motor R-27ER.

[jojo]

Yep, and Super 530D burns longer than R-27R...

 

And the question is: Is Super 530D too fast or AIM-7M too slow ?

 

And how boring it would be if all missiles had the same parameters...

[mrsteel]

Yep, and Super 530D burns longer than R-27R...

 

And the question is: Is Super 530D too fast or AIM-7M too slow ?

 

And how boring it would be if all missiles had the same parameters...

 

I never was a big fan of the aim7 besides the fact that it has flood mode, which is pretty helpful, but doesn't entirely negate its slow speed.

[metzger]

I also find that Super 530 is harder to evade. In pure head to head bvr and no awacs I would say mirage has slight advantage.

 

But if there is an AWACS the flanker get very good picture on its hdd and can turn its radar off using only irst and the mirage will never know where this r73 came from. :)

 

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[mrsteel]

This kinda worries me, because of the DDM on the Mirage, it will know where that r73 is coming from! At least F-15's will be on equal terms with us Flanker pilots still :)

[Oceandar]

As long as Su-27 has ER and F-15 has Amraam they still have big advantage against M2000C in 1 vs 1 scenario IMO

[metzger]

As long as Su-27 has ER and F-15 has Amraam they still have big advantage against M2000C in 1 vs 1 scenario IMO

F-15 yes. Su-27 I disagree, again, if there is no awacs. When m2k is jamming you can't realy fire ER so much earlier than 530 and if you do it won't be very high percent kill and it will be easily evaded and when the su has 530 fired at it it needs to engage defensive or it is over.

 

Also note that in tws even when jammed m2k shows you much more information like velocity vector direction and intercept square so you can position yourself to make very good shot while beeming the first ER.

 

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[jojo]

When jammed, the RDI doesn't show much information above burn through range.

Below burn through range this is business as usual.

 

In SP from high altitude I can reliably kill 2 AI F-16 packed with AIM-120...because they are AI and they have poor evasion maneuver.

 

Any F-15 or Su 27 have twice the missile load of M-2000C and better play time. If one know his business it's a hard time for M-2000C.

 

Yet I admit that AIM-120 terminal guidance seems not to be at the best level.

[Fri13]

Hasn`t been like that before, and I wouldn`t want to think, but rather be 100% sure. Why should exactly a slow-moving target be a problem for an IR guided missile? Certainly none. As for radar guided, it could be the matter of Doppler being fooled (filter will typically reject everything below 100-80 km/h), but even so, for such an advanced radar, one could argue whether this would be a problem or not. And if you are able to detect them, then it speaks against having a problem with locking them on. ;)

 

The problem with a radar and helicopters ain't the helicopter speed, but the main rotors. They generate very large and false echo to radars and requires radar to be capable handle especially rotors.

The rotor disk is to radar the whole surface area.

The rotors rotate at high speeds and low speed simultaneously (end of blade and root of the blade) and it continually is moving to all directions as blades are rotating towards radar, away from radar and left, right etc. So this is why earlier radars can't lock on helicopter and helicopter cause serious jammer effect to general direction.

 

I don't even know does Mirage 2000C even suppose to have a capability track helicopters, or any other aircraft in DCS to do so either.

[jojo]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

 

It's a dramatic friendly fire case, but first Black Hawk detection by F-15 flying at 27 000ft from 35Nm.

One shot down in close range by AIM-120 and the other by AIM-9.

 

Stinger missiles were deadly for Russian helicopters in Afghanistan, we saw other case since then.

So I don't see why it should be a problem for Fox 2.