I can not stall or spin Mirage that is not right!

[Guram]

I just got Mirage and FM looks so simplified basic, even at 60-80 km/h, the fighter will not stall or spin, is it just me, or everyone has this issue?

I expected FM to be at PFM level, but this is nothing even close to that :(

Thanks

[mvsgas]

[Guram]

Welcome to digital fly by wire. Don't expect a stall without exceeding the limiters, which is really quite difficult to do and tends to be followed by a violent departure.

 

Thanks for the response, so what are those limitations? the airspeed of 60 km/h is not enough?

[CrashO]

So you are saying you can still sustain flight in the mirage at 32kts? (60km/h).

Goodluckwithdat.

 

She might not "stall" in the classic way of pulling to high of a AoA, because of the FBW trying to create lift with the surfaces and controlling max AoA. But down, you will most certainly go. Which is basically what stalling boils down to (losing all lift).

Edited January 8, 2017 by CrashO

[Guram]

So you are saying you can still sustain flight in the mirage at 32kts? (60km/h).

Goodluckwithdat.

 

She might not "stall" in the classic way of pulling to high of an AoA, because of the FBW trying to create lift with the surfaces and controlling max AoA. But down, you will most certainly go. Which is basically what stalling boils down to (losing all lift).

 

It is not a controlled flight per se, just parachuting but keeping the nose up, so speed is between 60-80 km/h, but what is the point when it departs ? I can not believe that delta wing mirage is so stable? even su-27 stalls much easier, if you keep the speed at the minimum for long enough

[jamie_c]

60km/h, AOA? Attitude (aircraft, not yours)? Throttle position? Altitude? Winds? Expected behaviour given all of the above?

 

I'll assume 60km/h wings level, wheels down, 1G on the taxiway - do not expect uncontrolled departure.

[Guram]

The limiter maxes out around 32 AoA, wings start dropping past 40, it's almost impossible to overshoot it far enough that you actually depart the aircraft.

 

Interesting, looks like France made an excellent fighter that will not stall, I thought only 4 ++ and 5th gen fighters had this luxury like Su-35 or F-22, as F-16 and F-18 are also digital fly-by-wire jets but they stall is very possible there.

[Guram]

32 AoA also sounds cool as Mig-29 has 26 AoA limiter, and I believe Mig-29 should outmaneuver mirage easily in real life.

[jamie_c]

FBW goals are aircraft and mission specific an airliner can have FBW (Airbus as an example). The limits again are imposed to avoid undesired characteristics of extreme AoA and based and the properties of the specific aircraft. FBW is again aircraft specific, the instability of the teen series US fighters are seen as advantages to their users.

[Azrayen]

I believe Mig-29 should outmaneuver mirage easily in real life.

I wouldn't be so sure, when ITR is involved ;)

[jaguara5]

Read this article

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=178191&page=5

Also, this interview from a real pilot, claiming that in a dogfight he flew in the vertical at 60 knots and decelerating

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=175525&highlight=interview

Edited January 8, 2017 by jaguara5

[razo+r]

disable both FBW limiter and try again

[myHelljumper]

32 AoA also sounds cool as Mig-29 has 26 AoA limiter, and I believe Mig-29 should outmaneuver mirage easily in real life.

 

From this I understand that you do not have all the clues to call the mirage FM not right...

 

If the speed of 60 comes from your HUD then it's 60kts, not 60km/h. 60kts = 111km/h

[jojo]

32 AoA also sounds cool as Mig-29 has 26 AoA limiter, and I believe Mig-29 should outmaneuver mirage easily in real life.

 

The MiG 29 has higher thrust to weight ratio.

But M-2000 has higher roll rate, instantaneous turn rate, care free handling.

According to MiG 29G real life flight manual, if you put stick roll input past 15° AoA the plane will spin. You have to use rudder to create roll past 15°AoA (like on F-4 Phantom are some other aircraft).

This is something not reproduced currently. DCS MiG 29 is almost care free handling too and it shouldn't.

 

The only way to to stall/spin M-2000 is to go vertical, and let the speed die.

But the FBW will recover the plane as soon as there is enough speed.

 

Normal M-2000 limit is 29° or 9G, this is a "soft" limit. You can override it by applying more force on stick (IRL) or using a button (in DCS) to reach around 31° or 11G (but in override there isn't a real limit anymore).

This is a well known fact published in numerous books and magazines.

 

The drawback of this "gentle" flight behavior is that you can quickly loose your energy without really noticing it if you don't take care.

[Simon1279]

 

You've just made my day :lol:

[Rlaxoxo]

disable both FBW limiter and try again

 

You can't disable the FBW in Mirage

 

You've just made my day :lol:

 

I know lol Gave me a really good chuckle when I saw it as well : D

[PiedDroit]

It is not a controlled flight per se, just parachuting but keeping the nose up, so speed is between 60-80 km/h, but what is the point when it departs ? I can not believe that delta wing mirage is so stable? even su-27 stalls much easier, if you keep the speed at the minimum for long enough

Erm, if you're losing lift and sinking like a brick, you're technically stalling.

 

Did you confuse with "departure"?

Edited January 8, 2017 by PiedDroit

[razo+r]

You can't disable the FBW in Mirage

 

 

 

I was reffering to the FBW limiters like FBW spin switch and the FBW limiter switch, as i said FBW limiter

[mvsgas]

I just got Mirage and FM looks so simplified basic, even at 60-80 km/h, the fighter will not stall or spin, is it just me, or everyone has this issue?

I expected FM to be at PFM level, but this is nothing even close to that :(

Thanks

 

It is not a controlled flight per se, just parachuting but keeping the nose up, so speed is between 60-80 km/h, but what is the point when it departs ? I can not believe that delta wing mirage is so stable? even su-27 stalls much easier, if you keep the speed at the minimum for long enough

 

A few questions if I may:

1) What behavior where you expecting?

2) Where are you getting Km/h speed reading?

3) Could you please post a track so we can see the behavior you are referring to?

[jojo]

I think he just wasn't aware of the level of technology in M-2000.

So he got his answer. Overall flight behavior is correct, and it's different from current FC fighters.

Hornet will be too.

[Guram]

I think he just wasn't aware of the level of technology in M-2000.

So he got his answer. Overall flight behavior is correct, and it's different from current FC fighters.

Hornet will be too.

 

Yeap, I guess I did not expect Mirage to be that stable, as I understand Su-27 and F-15 also have PFM with FBW in FC3 is that correct? but Su-27/ f-15 behavior is more realistic to me, with all the jittery and shaky at low speed and low-level flights, stall/ spin is more possible in those models, but maybe it is just me, but thanks you for your feedback, I will do some homework reading. Overall avionics look really authentic, and if FM is close to the real thing than I am very happy with that.

[jojo]

This is must read:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2978880&postcount=47

 

And FBW or not isn't the end of the story. You have different level of technology, different design philosophy...

Edited January 8, 2017 by jojo

[Guram]

Thank you for your feedback, guys ! I learned a lot!

[jaguara5]

I don't know if these are public available

N83-10060

Mathe, P.L., “Fly by Wire Control: Towards New Norms for Juding Flight Qualities. An Example: the Mirage

2000,” AGARD Criteria for Handling Qualities of Military Aircraft, June 1982. In French

N84-15093

Ladel, J. and J. Bastidon, “The Mirage 2000: Fly by Wire Control and Safety,” AGARD Flight Mechanics

and System Design Lessons from Operational Experience, Oct. 1983. In French

[jojo]

I don't know if these are public available

N83-10060

Mathe, P.L., “Fly by Wire Control: Towards New Norms for Juding Flight Qualities. An Example: the Mirage

2000,” AGARD Criteria for Handling Qualities of Military Aircraft, June 1982. In French

 

N84-15093

Ladel, J. and J. Bastidon, “The Mirage 2000: Fly by Wire Control and Safety,”

AGARD Flight Mechanics

and System Design Lessons from Operational Experience, Oct. 1983. In French

 

Where did you found these references ? Do you have the documents ?