Is losing Radar Lock still a thing?

[Jugdriver]

I don't think the PID lock issue is a bug, I see it more as a feature.

 

I believe Zeus said it was a bug that has to be fixed on the ED side.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

[myHelljumper]

I believe Zeus said it was a bug that has to be fixed on the ED side.

 

JD

AKA_MattE

 

Thanks, I now remember reading something like this, but I think it was a while ago, it might worth to ask him the status on this :).

[Hermit713]

I don't think the PID lock issue is a bug, I see it more as a feature.

 

LOL f " we use multiple receivers (satillites) so we can have great reception"

 

IF you have a defective product, and have to add something to make it work, Advertise it as a "Feature"....

 

So why not just throw some Aim 120's on the Mirrage and call it a day??

 

There isn't any reason why we cant use them. That would even things up.,

Edited May 10, 2017 by Hermit713

[myHelljumper]

LOL f " we use multiple receivers (satillites) so we can have great reception"

 

IF you have a defective product, and have to add something to make it work, Advertise it as a "Feature"....

 

So why not just throw some Aim 120's on the Mirrage and call it a day??

 

There isn't any reason why we cant use them. That would even things up.,

 

Nice necro :).

 

I don't understand your point, I'm saying that loosing lock while in PID mode might be realistic under some circumstances, hence the "feature".

Please show me that the lost PID locks are happening in conditions where they shouldn't and then we will agree that there is a bug :).

 

I don't see how it relate to "throw some Aim 120's on the Mirrage and call it a day" but I don't want any AIM 120 on my Mirage ;).

 

Anyway I hope I made myself clear (this time ;)).

[Frostie]

PID (TWS) is not real time it uses prediction to show multiple contacts while tracking. The problem on ED's side as far as I can tell is that when PID loses the contact from the target notching etc. a memory feature should remember last known and try and reacquire the target. The memory feature isn't there afaik. This happens with the F15 also.

[Dugong]

So i've come back to the mirage after many months away from DCS in general and i'm having massive problems with the radar dropping contacts.

 

Is this still a bug or am i doing something wrong? When this happens there isn't zero speed differential, and the target isn't notching, but it frequently seems to happen approx six seconds after locking. It's often impossible to relock if i've pickled as the targets don't reappear on the scop until well after the 530 is out of paramters

[jojo]

So i've come back to the mirage after many months away from DCS in general and i'm having massive problems with the radar dropping contacts.

 

Is this still a bug or am i doing something wrong? When this happens there isn't zero speed differential, and the target isn't notching, but it frequently seems to happen approx six seconds after locking. It's often impossible to relock if i've pickled as the targets don't reappear on the scop until well after the 530 is out of paramters

 

What is the range of the contact please ?

Maybe a jamming contact ?

[Jugdriver]

So i've come back to the mirage after many months away from DCS in general and i'm having massive problems with the radar dropping contacts.

 

Is this still a bug or am i doing something wrong? When this happens there isn't zero speed differential, and the target isn't notching, but it frequently seems to happen approx six seconds after locking. It's often impossible to relock if i've pickled as the targets don't reappear on the scop until well after the 530 is out of paramters

 

The PID/TWS Still drops targets, here is what I said about it a while back and it still applies.

 

 

the other side is how the RDI works and some of its quirks like it’s issue with dropping contacts in PID/TWS (among others). I will lock a contact in PID/TWS get the information I need then unlock it so the contact does not drop off, then relock it in PID/TWS as I get close to the shot, then hard lock it (PIC/STT) manually before I fire (which is not really necessary as JoJo pointed out, it is just how I do it).

 

JD

AKA_MattE

[p1t1o]

I consistently - not every time but often - lose lock on a "training" mission I set up.

 

The target is a friendly C-130 set not to react to any incoming fire flying at roughly 250-ish kts at roughly 6-7k feet, flying in a straight line. No countermeasures, no evasive maneuvering, no ECM, within 10km of my aircraft.

 

Whether above, below or at same alt, and definitely NOT beaming, locks will drop with infuriating regularity.

 

Definitely feels like buggy behavior to me.

Edited June 13, 2017 by p1t1o
spelling

[myHelljumper]

I consistently - not every time but often - lose lock on a "training" mission I set up.

 

The target is a friendly C-130 set not to react to any incoming fire flying at roughly 250-ish kts at roughly 6-7k feet, flying in a straight line. No countermeasures, no evasive maneuvering, no ECM, within 10km of my aircraft.

 

Whether above, below or at same alt, and definitely NOT beaming, locks will drop with infuriating regularity.

 

Definitely feels like buggy behavior to me.

 

Is he flying away from you ?

 

A track would help to understand the issue because I very rarely loose lock with my 2000.

[p1t1o]

Is he flying away from you ?

 

A track would help to understand the issue because I very rarely loose lock with my 2000.

 

Generally speaking, yes. Though I have heard little about radar having a susceptibility to dropping tracks from the rear quarter. Is it expected behavior?

 

Cant post a track at the minute, but I have little faith in them anyway these days, in tracks my aircraft do not often make it off the runway.

 

Next time Im flying I'll try and remember to save one.

[myHelljumper]

Try do do a short track where you are already airborne, this way it should not be corrupted ;)

 

If the contact is flying away from you then your speed difference is low, as the radar uses the Doppler effect it might drop the contact as it does not produce enough of this effect.

 

I think this behavior will happen with in a look up and look down situation as it is different from the Doppler notch where the target have to be below you and have a low speed difference with the ground. I might be wrong here but that is my understanding :).

 

To counter this you can switch to INT or BFR mode where the Doppler effect is less used but you won't be able to fire a Super 530D.

[sedenion]

If the contact is flying away from you then your speed difference is low, as the radar uses the Doppler effect it might drop the contact as it does not produce enough of this effect.

 

For this kind of argument, i really would love developper's comments, like "Ho yes, this is codded as this in the module, when the target speed is near or equal own speed, the lock is lost"...

 

I heard so many theories here about how and why this is normal that the radar "lose the lock because <insert here some reason that explain why you are wrong and why this is so realistic>", than i really want to view the radar code to ensure myselft that people are not simply fantasming the "realism" from some unknown bugs.

[myHelljumper]

I'm just trying to help....

 

As I said I don't know if this behavior is happening IRL.

[p1t1o]

Try do do a short track where you are already airborne, this way it should not be corrupted ;)

 

If the contact is flying away from you then your speed difference is low, as the radar uses the Doppler effect it might drop the contact as it does not produce enough of this effect.

 

I think this behavior will happen with in a look up and look down situation as it is different from the Doppler notch where the target have to be below you and have a low speed difference with the ground. I might be wrong here but that is my understanding :).

 

To counter this you can switch to INT or BFR mode where the Doppler effect is less used but you won't be able to fire a Super 530D.

 

That is an incorrect description of look-down-shoot-down pulse doppler radar. A doppler radar can detect a stationary, or relative-stationary target with no problem, regardless of doppler shift.

 

What a look-down-shoot-down pulse doppler radar does is filter out returns that are stationary with respect to the ground - this is why "notching" works, because the closing speed is equal to your airspeed and the contact is stationary (in distance terms) with respect to the ground. In all other situations, the contact would not be filtered.

 

If the radar was filtering out contacts that are at zero closing speed, then zero percent of ground clutter would be ignored, defeating the object.

[myHelljumper]

If the radar was filtering out contacts that are at zero closing speed, then zero percent of ground clutter would be ignored, defeating the object.

 

Read my post, I was no saying that :). (yeah, I see. I did not made myself clear, sorry for that)

 

I was saying that, as you said, the notch was making the target looks like a ground return AND that the radar might also filter contacts that does not produce Doppler effects.

That would explain why you loose the contacts in a tail chase situation BUT I don't know if it's how it works.

Edited June 13, 2017 by myHelljumper

[p1t1o]

Read my post, I was no saying that :). (yeah, I see. I did not made myself clear, sorry for that)

 

I was saying that, as you said, the notch was making the target looks like a ground return AND that the radar might also filter contacts that does not produce Doppler effects.

That would explain why you loose the contacts in a tail chase situation BUT I don't know if it's how it works.

 

No worries :)

 

Though I cant think of any reason why, from a moving vehicle, you'd want to filter out returns with zero doppler shift.

 

Besides which, in my example mission, the target is a slow-mover which i made no effort to match speeds with, its unlikely that I ever spent much time at zero doppler shift. Certainly not often enough to explain the difficulty in maintaining a lock.

 

Im still going with "bug" at this point.

[myHelljumper]

Im still going with "bug" at this point.

 

Provide a track and we will see. If you still think there is a bug you can post it with your track in the bug section so the devs can have a look at it :).

[Azrayen]

That is an incorrect description of look-down-shoot-down pulse doppler radar. A doppler radar can detect a stationary, or relative-stationary target with no problem, regardless of doppler shift.

 

What a look-down-shoot-down pulse doppler radar does is filter out returns that are stationary with respect to the ground - this is why "notching" works, because the closing speed is equal to your airspeed and the contact is stationary (in distance terms) with respect to the ground. In all other situations, the contact would not be filtered.

 

If the radar was filtering out contacts that are at zero closing speed, then zero percent of ground clutter would be ignored, defeating the object.

 

OK. You described the main point of the doppler radar, and what you said about it is correct regarding the radar main lobe.

Now you have to learn about secondary lobes / side lobes.

Annnnd there it is. You get the reason why "iso-speed" (relative to the aircraft) targets are a pain in the ass, as are "stationnary" (relative to the ground) targets.

 

I would advise Sedenion to look at this too, since he's "probably" :D not gonna see the code anytime soon ;)

 

++

Az' :)

 

PS: That said, I don't rule out the possibility of an un-described bug to still be there. I'm also advocating for short tracks to be provided, as it makes the discussion far more concrete. And AFAIK, there is still one (known/unresolved) bug afflicting "PID lock + aircraft maneuvering frankly" situations.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Azrayen

[sedenion]

I would advise Sedenion to look at this too, since he's "probably" :D not gonna see the code anytime soon ;)

 

Maybe, but i like to speak about facts, not about "theorically implemented as IRL"... If a dev tell me: "Here are the test that are made, here is how the radar is coded to lose lock", it is ok for me. But i want to know, because as developper too, i perfectly know that a real radar and a simulation algorithm are two things totaly differents. The first is interacting in a incommensurably complex world made of molecules, waves, etc... the second is just some sucession of "if then", where "chaos" and "hasard" do not exist, except if they are voluntarly implemented as this.

[Azrayen]

Well, I like polite requests better than patronizing demands. Unfortunately, it seems like we don't always got what we like. :)

[jojo]

Maybe, but i like to speak about facts, not about "theorically implemented as IRL"... If a dev tell me: "Here are the test that are made, here is how the radar is coded to lose lock", it is ok for me. But i want to know, because as developper too, i perfectly know that a real radar and a simulation algorithm are two things totaly differents. The first is interacting in a incommensurably complex world made of molecules, waves, etc... the second is just some sucession of "if then", where "chaos" and "hasard" do not exist, except if they are voluntarly implemented as this.

 

I just tested on F-15C, and it does the same, both in MED and HI PRF.

 

So it's not bug, it's a feature, and not specific to M-2000C = side lobe filtering

 

US C-130 flying 15000ft, 20Nm ahead, 214kt IAS. I'm in US F-15C.

 

When flying below 230kt the contact vanish from radar scope. It reappears below 180kt in HI and 190kt in MED.

[myHelljumper]

I just tested on F-15C, and it does the same, both in MED and HI PRF.

 

So it's not bug, it's a feature, and not specific to M-2000C = side lobe filtering

 

US C-130 flying 15000ft, 20Nm ahead, 214kt IAS. I'm in US F-15C.

 

When flying below 230kt the contact vanish from radar scope. It reappears below 180kt in HI and 190kt in MED.

 

Thanks for the info, it is nice to know it :thumbup:

 

So I was wrong, it's not Doppler filtering but side lobe filtering ?

Edited June 13, 2017 by myHelljumper

[GGTharos]

Thanks for the info, it is nice to know it

 

So I was wrong, it's not Doppler filtering but side lobe filtering ?

I'll check on that, but that isn't right. These radar are too modern to have such blind speeds.

[jojo]

I'll check on that, but that isn't right. These radar are too modern to have such blind speeds.

 

Yep, you already told it, but this is how it works in DCS World. It has been reported true on russian fighters too.

Edited June 13, 2017 by jojo