R-27ER Experiment & Findings

[GGTharos]

So a head-on shot against a non-maneuvering target travelling at 300m/s could be taken at 40km in this case, and this is all well within the 60s available power limit.

[IASGATG]

Having done a quick test in DCS, a 5km shot at 350m/s resulted in the missile falling back to 350m/s in 31s and 26.5km.

 

A second test where the data states a 600m/s shot should slow back to 600m/s in 45s and travel 35km.

 

In contrast a 550m/s launch in DCS (which is basically the max speed a flanker will do at 5km), will drop back to 600m/s in 26 seconds and travel 24km.

 

This means that the missile is losing it's top end speed too quickly and retaining its low end speed for too long.

Edited March 10, 2017 by IASGATG

[proletariat23]

my exp with these missiles is that they are to scare people shooting at you with amrams, but hardly ever find the mark.

 

do yourself a favor, turn your radar off, turn your ecm off, get into the sun and adder them in the face while they look down at their radars.

[JunMcKill]

my exp with these missiles is that they are to scare people shooting at you with amrams, but hardly ever find the mark.

 

do yourself a favor, turn your radar off, turn your ecm off, get into the sun and adder them in the face while they look down at their radars.

 

Is not that easy! :D try it against the guys of the 104th!

[Capn kamikaze]

This tacview track proves just how messed up the R-27ER modeling is, it is behaving like an actively guided missile.

 

I know there is an issue with DCS where it remembers but it shouldn't, but this is ridiculous, if you view the track pointing from the F-15 to the Su-27 at about 11 minutes in, the Su has clearly turned away long before the R-27 makes its last turn before nearly hitting me.

 

https://www.datafilehost.com/d/cb074804

Edited March 10, 2017 by Cap'n kamikaze

[red_coreSix]

Not having looked at the file, I'm 99% sure it's caused by the way radar memory works in DCS

[Beamscanner]

The problem is that the US military until 1985 knew everything about Russian radars, EM emissions frequencies, telemetry, radio guidance, etc due a Russian engineer that gave all the classified information to the CIA.

 

In fact DCS is close to reality for the mid 80s russian aircraft radars, warning to the US aircraft about the lock and missile launch in the Russian platforms, another thing is for russian aircrafts after 1990

 

The only thing I dont like is that the MIG-29S Rubin radar have the same behavior than the SU-27 ones in DCS, and is not real because the Rubin was updated inmediately after the Spy information release.

 

"The N019 was further compromised by Phazotron designer Adolf Tolkachev’s betrayal of the radar to the CIA, for which he was executed in 1986. In response to all of these problems, the Soviets hastily developed a modified N019M Topaz radar for the upgraded MiG-29S aircraft. However, VVS was reportedly still not satisfied with the performance of the system and demanded another upgrade. The latest upgraded aircraft offered the N010 Zhuk-M, which has a planar array antenna rather than a dish, improving range, and a much superior processing ability, with multiple-target engagement capability and compatibility with the Vympel R-77 (or RVV-AE). Most MiG-29 continue to use the analog N019 or N019M radar, VVS has indicated its desire to upgrade all MiG-29s to a fully digital system"

 

The US probably knew alot more from alot of other sources, not just that guy. Say ELINT for instance..

 

Also, the N019M and N019(and its big brother the N001) are nearly identical. With the only difference being its ECCM logic, processing speed, and the ability to track and engage two objects.

[Capn kamikaze]

Not having looked at the file, I'm 99% sure it's caused by the way radar memory works in DCS

 

I know there are issues with it not dropping locks quick enough, but what is in that track just isn't funny, the lock has clearly been lost, the radar can't possibly be pointed anywhere near me, and it isn't like it's a few hundred milliseconds delay, the lock should be long gone, and the missile THEN initiates a turn.

 

For all the complaining about the chaff, why is it that no one is complaining about this sort of unrealistic behavior?

 

I've just checked the track again, from the POV of the Su, and he doesn't even lock me up, so what is going on here?

Edited March 11, 2017 by Cap'n kamikaze

[proletariat23]

Is not that easy! :D try it against the guys of the 104th!

I'd never heard so I googled, and here is my imbued ire:

 

If i ran a server, and camped the same vectors with amraams and shot at new players in a pub match, I wouldn't even have time to post here, I'd imagine, my priorities as a human would be much different.

 

In a one on one fight, with even variables, I like my odds.

[proletariat23]

reading the thread and listening to your experience, I think there is some gamesmanship, or balancing afoot. Or it's just, Incorrect temporarily, to be polite.

[Fri13]

I know there are issues with it not dropping locks quick enough, but what is in that track just isn't funny, the lock has clearly been lost, the radar can't possibly be pointed anywhere near me, and it isn't like it's a few hundred milliseconds delay, the lock should be long gone, and the missile THEN initiates a turn.

 

For all the complaining about the chaff, why is it that no one is complaining about this sort of unrealistic behavior?

 

Because usually chaff has already killed the missile....

 

You seem to be victim of home on jam style missile....

[Capn kamikaze]

I doubt it, I turn off my jammer when I get closer to the bandits.

[Capn kamikaze]

Where you see me break left, and start to dive away, about half way down that dive, before I turned back into the Flanker, is about where I turned it off.

[GGTharos]

This has nothing to do with missiles acting as active - it's just a little programming thing that for whatever reason keeps the target designated for a couple of seconds after lock is lost. It's probably to facilitate target recovery in the memory modes.

[Capn kamikaze]

The effect is the same though, the missile is guiding all on its own, there is a difference between keeping somethings last position/direction in memory so you can predict where it is going to be, and actually tracking it while it makes a turn.

[Fri13]

I doubt it' date=' I turn off my jammer when I get closer to the bandits.[/quote']

 

Is it possible that missile acts like HOJ (capable as well to home to radars) to keep few second track?

As at really don't have anything jamming, it is just a radar source and echo that radar source say how to multiply the new track and lock distances.

 

So a radar can be used same way by some code in missile guidance.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Fri13

[Capn kamikaze]

IRL no, it is not possible, but in a game anything is.

[Frostie]

I'm not seeing the tacview, but i'm guessing HOJ.

 

I've just tested it and as soon as you turn off the jammer the missile goes dead.

 

On the acmi at 43 seconds the bandit no longer has a lock on me, I turn off the jammer and then drop flares to signal. You can see that the missile went dead immediately.

Tacview-20170311-162701-DCS.zip.rar

Edited March 11, 2017 by Frostie

[Capn kamikaze]

Like I said, I turned the jammer off well before I entered that turn, yet it still tracked me, it missed, but it still initiated a turn towards me, just not tight enough.

[Capn kamikaze]

I can't open that tacview file, it drops a warning message.

[IASGATG]

Can i turn this topic slightly towards something that is easier to test and fix?

 

Can a skilled flanker pilot tell me what the max range of a tail chase, co-alt, co-speed, 5km alt, non-manevuring target shot for a 27er is please?

[proletariat23]

I'm with meme magic- make digital combat missiles great again, by kek, or whatever the kids say.

[Sweep]

I'm with meme magic- make digital combat missiles great again, by kek, or whatever the kids say.

 

#MakeMissilesGreatAgain

 

Because Kek wills it.

[Frostie]

I can't open that tacview file' date=' it drops a warning message.[/quote']

 

It's a WinRAR zip file you need to extract it with a zip file extractor.

 

You've uploaded your tacview to a not too pleasant site, i'd suggest you stay away from that one and use a more reputable upload site.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Frostie

[Beamscanner]

idk if it was mentioned already, but IRL all of the chaff in front of the radar is being illuminated to so degree or another, from main beam/sidelobe/multipath(from ground or another chaff bundle that was illuminated.

 

The "beamwidth" listed on the brochure of any given radar refers to the half-power (or -3dB) beamwidth. This refers to the area where the majority of the power density is located, but varying degrees of energy emit out in almost all directions..

 

in the example below, the antennas "beamwidth" would be listed as 28.65°, but in truth energy is being emitted out (at an ever decreasing power) across a much wide angle (near to 60°). The decrease in power extends to a degree called a "null", after which the power increases again in areas known as side lobes. So the only place where there is little to no energy are the nulls.

 

 

When looking at your given tests (if you want to be realistic about) you need to take the signal to noise ratio into account. Yes there is less energy outside of the half power beamwidth, but the RCS of the chaff bundle is MUCH higher than that of the target.

 

additionally, some self protection jammers may use chaff with a jamming signal directed at their own chaff as a method of employing off axis jamming. I imagine they might even employ doppler jamming on the chaff bundle, making the technique useful while not being in a radars doppler notch.