R-27ER Experiment & Findings

[jackmckay]

Hi all. I haven't read all the comments but topic is right on bulls eye. I'm constantly flying on Su27 in the MP and most of time in BF and I'll try to explain my POV on real MP situation. Since M2K was introduced things got kind of strange. First, m2k FM was so overrated in that way that was given 'god mode' in all combat aspects regarding acceleration, turn rate, missile effectiveness etc. That's fine for rookies but not real. So it took some time for pilots to master m2k. And they outperformed all other and even dethroned mighty eagle. So developers degraded m2k a little bit. So it's now like 'fixed' (but ain't). Story comes to interesting part regarding R27s and I'm referring strictly to MP like my BF case.

 

If you're lucky to find hot CAP fighter on radar (even if you see it visually and point radar at exact elevation, changing modes and modifying range - you won't lock it closer than 40-50km), being solid locked target unlocks and disappears without obvious reason (even in MED mode) and then you have problem finding it again (VS mode locks it again but isn't it little bit too late for SARH now) so this is No1 downgrade of Flanker - bad sensors modeling.

 

Next, you're being fired on with some high-g missiles like AIM7s, that's fine but even if I fired my R27s (E and T) and deflect in moderate(!) maneuvers I can't deplete AIM7s energy because it flies like on rails and my chaffs are useless in 99% of time, but my energy bleeds so fast that after few moderately aggressive maneuvers I become siting duck flying 600kmh struggling to accelerate again even Flanker has 24T of thrust available. Raw physics says that it is harder to stop heavy object than light one in same density medium and we know that Flanker is really HEAVY plane. So this is No2 downgrade of Flanker - bad energy preservation.

 

The only thing that helps against western missiles is hiding behind hill and breaking the lock (m2k missiles are kind of unrealistic super ramjet so this won't be enough in many cases), even 3-5 secs after being hidden behind hill my RWR is still red hot. not big deal but kind of odd because you're not sure if you have enemy lock still on. But this is interesting. You have M2k or F15 in pursuit and locked, good attack aspect and in good firing range, and it's flying steady, as soon as you fire missile (any) target starts lagging and your missiles miss (my ping is 50-90) but even if target is not lagging and is chaffing and flaring in 90% of cases 27s miss. The only missile that hits is 73 but only in 20% of cases. So this is Flanker downgrade No3 - extremely unreliable missiles.

 

I had a case of chasing a single enemy and firing all 10 missiles and none hits because of whole arsenal over sensitivity to countermeasures and lag. This renders Flankers completely underrated and ineffective fighter plane even it's engines are the most powerful jet engines in game, flight model extremely maneuverable and also R27s have the largest flight command surfaces. I have done some tests too and I found that that most problems come from missiles kinetics when attached on plane (and when airborne too) because they drain energy too fast and when equipped it feels like having enormous parasite drag. It's very odd especially if you find that effectiveness of R27s in MP is like 5%. It feels like Flanker is equipped with firework rockets.

 

My opinion is that performance of eastern technology is severely underrated and effectiveness of western planes and especially missiles is in great advantage because of all this mentioned above. The proof case is M2k story. Is that real?

 

Below are two charts and one max acceleration test (clean). PS. Viggen is on steroids :).

Edited March 7, 2017 by jackmckay

[The Black Swan]

 

With great respect to all, the discussions about various missile ranges are distracting from the real problem. All missiles have artificially low ranges in DCS but the reason for this is well known: they all have artificially large Cd. The reasons why this is the case are well known and have been stated many times by ED, even by Wags in a Youtube video. Missile range problems affect us all equally and that is not the real issue.

.

 

Could you please tell me what video that was? Im trying to understand that problem with range.

If finding the right drag performance is as simple as doing some simulated wind tunnel tests then why hasn't ED fixed this? They are masters of that type of stuff.....

[GGTharos]

What's simple about running CFDs?

[jackmckay]

What's simple about running CFDs?

Well, whole DCS comunity has most powerfull rigs on planet and if we could interconnect to the grid we could make CFD runs as smooth as butter and over in a days at acceptable level of details. BTW OpenFoam is free.

Edited March 7, 2017 by jackmckay

[jackmckay]

All missiles have artificially low ranges in DCS but the reason for this is well known: they all have artificially large Cd. The reasons why this is the case are well known and have been stated many times by ED, even by Wags in a Youtube video. Missile range problems affect us all equally and that is not the real issue.

 

This makes a lot of sence. I would add to that regarding aggregated artificial drag coef.(Cd) the problem is very obvious on Su27 for the reason of having 10 missiles comparing to the 4 that m2k carries. Thats why m2k can accelerate faster and it seems that it's missiles aren't affected by this artificial Cd and that's why Flanker bleeds energy so fast as it feels like flying with drag chute constantly opened. Eagle has many missiles too but combat performance of AIM7 is way better than R27R and it can relock target easily compared to R27 if at all. One thing is also very strange refering to Flanker - it still has problems with FCS and 'free' mode because its wings still snaps easily even clean and with less of 2T of fuel left and now rudder fails too so there's no way of using it's famous combat manouverability in dodging missiles. We add high fatality of every single missile hit (even stinger) and I can only (but hate to) conclude that someone in ED is core Flanker hater. What else? There is no more (any) traces of G in it's Greatness and we all know Flanker is real-life performance champion. R27 story is just last nail in it's coffin. I ask why and whats the point of all that?

Edited March 7, 2017 by jackmckay

[OnlyforDCS]

jackmckay, so much of what you wrote in your previous posts is hyperbole and just plain wrong! I won't refute point by point, because it would be a waste of time and more importantly it's offtopic. This discussion is about the ER and countermeasure rejection of the missile (and to a lesser extent other SARH missiles) and posts like yours just "muddy the waters", they are counterproductive and bring the credibility down of the whole discussion. If you have a problem with the Super530D, or the Mirage being "overpowered" (lol I can't believe I used this word on a sim forum) or with the Flanker being "nerfed" (there I go again) please go to those parts of the forum and start a few threads there.

Edited March 7, 2017 by OnlyforDCS

[myHelljumper]

Mirage OP, please NERF !!!

[JunMcKill]

Mirage OP, please NERF !!!

 

And the discussion about R-77 has not started yet! :D

[GGTharos]

This makes a lot of sence. I would add to that regarding aggregated artificial drag coef.(Cd) the problem is very obvious on Su27 for the reason of having 10 missiles comparing to the 4 that m2k carries.

 

Yes, the Su-27 carries 10 heavy, draggy missiles on heavy, draggy pylons. Live with it.

The missile's drag while it's in flight has nothing to do with the missile's drag when it's onboard the aircraft in game.

 

Thats why m2k can accelerate faster and it seems that it's missiles aren't affected by this artificial Cd and that's why Flanker bleeds energy so fast as it feels like flying with drag chute constantly opened.

 

Have you noticed that flankers on patrol carry say, four missiles in RL? I wonder why ... they might not want that drag chute? :)

The flanker is tuned to accelerate like the real thing when carrying missiles.

 

Eagle has many missiles too but combat performance of AIM7 is way better than R27R and it can relock target easily compared to R27 if at all. One thing is also very strange refering to Flanker - it still has problems with FCS and 'free' mode because its wings still snaps easily even clean and with less of 2T of fuel left and now rudder fails too so there's no way of using it's famous combat manouverability in dodging missiles.

 

You never had any magical missile-dodging maneuverability. All of this 'famous' maneuverability is all about STR/ITR, high AoA, all of which implies combat speed at or below M0.85.

 

We add high fatality of every single missile hit (even stinger) and I can only (but hate to) conclude that someone in ED is core Flanker hater. What else? There is no more (any) traces of G in it's Greatness and we all know Flanker is real-life performance champion. R27 story is just last nail in it's coffin. I ask why and whats the point of all that?

 

What are you complaining about? A single gun round can take off of the F-15C's hydraulics. Should I complain that there's an eagle hater in ED, because the real thing can lose and entire wing and still stay controllable?

 

The point is probably just to have you write all those wonderful posts so that we can read them :)

[GGTharos]

Living in a fantasy world is also free. Anyone can install a program - that's not where the complexity lies.

 

Well, whole DCS comunity has most powerfull rigs on planet and if we could interconnect to the grid we could make CFD runs as smooth as butter and over in a days at acceptable level of details. BTW OpenFoam is free.

[*Rage*]

Lets try and stay on topic.

 

There has been a notion the 530D has better chaff resistence in game over the 7M and R/ER. After a little testing that doesnt seem to be the case.

[Fri13]

So basically all SARH missiles suffer from the exact same problem?

 

What I remember reading from someones tests, was that the chaff works exactly same way as flares, meaning they get checked periodically is there a change does the missile lock on them. And once it is locked to such, lock stays there.

 

So flaring more, or chaffing more means there is more changes that a missile will get locked to one, from the original target.

 

And it seems that missiles don't have a FOV. Like if you fire a IR missile, it doesn't have just a 1.5 degree FOV with 45 degree gimbal angle, but it has like the 45 degree FOV so it will catch the flare very easily.

 

We don't have realistic chaff... meaning it doesn't generate a larger echo source and block the signals penetrating it. Causing a large area that blocks radar seeing behind it. Neither we don't have chaff staying in the air for hours, spreading larger and generating serious problems for others to see through.

 

Instead it is just like a flare, isn't visible in the radar nor block the radar field of view range and definitely doesn't spread out to large areas.

 

 

We just don't have the radar simulation at all in the DCS, that is the problem. So basic and simple that it just gives an illusion it would work, until you start wondering how chaff and radar should work.

 

There is lots to be needed to be done, maybe the F/A-18 is the one that does it by changing the radar functions when the ground radar system comes and terrain engine gets updated.

Same time there are many other things that would need to be changed with the simple simulations that radar requires, like the FLIR systems would get much lower performance, making many CAS pilot angry about it. We would get more difficulties to find air, as ground units. And it just promotes the ground units importance to find the targets and mark them for CAS. Search radar systems to find targets for fighters etc.

 

Air quake would end up there very quickly as well.

 

So the SARH problem is just tip of the iceberg about whole core problem in DCS.

[Sweep]

(snip snip)

 

So the SARH problem is just tip of the iceberg about whole core problem in DCS.

 

This!

 

Especially that last line.

 

:thumbup:

[jackmckay]

jackmckay, so much of what you wrote in your previous posts is hyperbole and just plain wrong....

 

I respect your opinion and you can always say what you want but it's my everyday experience in MP and many Flanker pilots will come to that conclusion sooner or later. I ain't rookie and being in DCS story from LOMAC age.

 

Well if we stick to R27 part only and its sensor and drag problems and when combined with lagging, over-reaction to minimum amount of countermeasures and refusing to follow locked target, this is just part of bigger picture for which I pulled out all other combat aspects of Flanker. Part in which R27 is just useless missile at this state in (BF) MP and I stand behind this line with my years of MP experience in DCS and personal observation. That doesn't mean it won't be fixed in some point of time. I sure hope it will but right now its very broken and with it is the rest of Flanker too.

[DarkFire]

Could you please tell me what video that was? Im trying to understand that problem with range.

If finding the right drag performance is as simple as doing some simulated wind tunnel tests then why hasn't ED fixed this? They are masters of that type of stuff.....

 

Hmm I can't find the video any more. It was one of the DCS Q&A videos that Wags used to do. I can only find one of them on the DCS YouTube channel now.

 

The reason that ED have given several times for the artificially inflated Cd is that giving missiles 'realistic' ranges at low & medium altitudes results in them having insanely over-inflated range at high altitude.

 

I guess this implies that the atmospheric modelling needs an adjustment at high altitudes, or that missile kinematics needs a tweek for lower air densities, but there we are, that's the reason.

[GGTharos]

Wags said what the situation is. Scientifically, aerodynamics is complex enough that it's hard to know what the 'fix' is. The atmosphere modeling is probably spot-on, and it's the missile FM that needs additional complexity.

 

But don't get me wrong, the missile FM is actually fairly good - but the guidance part is needed to round out the realism.

[Schmidtfire]

Just put an option on server side to remove the RWR launch warning sound and we will see way more kills :)

[Fri13]

Just put an option on server side to remove the RWR launch warning sound and we will see way more kills :)

 

but....bit....but.... realism... but the realism.... :megalol:

 

many things would need to change before that for realism...

[Sweep]

Just put an option on server side to remove the RWR launch warning sound and we will see way more kills :)

 

Like 104th has SARH only events and missions, there could be a "Visual Threat Reactions ONLY" Mission.

 

:megalol:

[JunMcKill]

Just put an option on server side to remove the RWR launch warning sound and we will see way more kills :)

 

The problem is that the US military until 1985 knew everything about Russian radars, EM emissions frequencies, telemetry, radio guidance, etc due a Russian engineer that gave all the classified information to the CIA.

 

In fact DCS is close to reality for the mid 80s russian aircraft radars, warning to the US aircraft about the lock and missile launch in the Russian platforms, another thing is for russian aircrafts after 1990

 

The only thing I dont like is that the MIG-29S Rubin radar have the same behavior than the SU-27 ones in DCS, and is not real because the Rubin was updated inmediately after the Spy information release.

 

"The N019 was further compromised by Phazotron designer Adolf Tolkachev’s betrayal of the radar to the CIA, for which he was executed in 1986. In response to all of these problems, the Soviets hastily developed a modified N019M Topaz radar for the upgraded MiG-29S aircraft. However, VVS was reportedly still not satisfied with the performance of the system and demanded another upgrade. The latest upgraded aircraft offered the N010 Zhuk-M, which has a planar array antenna rather than a dish, improving range, and a much superior processing ability, with multiple-target engagement capability and compatibility with the Vympel R-77 (or RVV-AE). Most MiG-29 continue to use the analog N019 or N019M radar, VVS has indicated its desire to upgrade all MiG-29s to a fully digital system"

Edited March 8, 2017 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

The only thing I dont like is that the MIG-29S Rubin radar have the same behavior than the SU-27 ones in DCS, and is not real because the Rubin was updated inmediately after the Spy information release.

 

Yep. Though all we have as information for this specific radar is just a 2 second video clip demonstrating 2TWS HuD :(

 

This radar should probably be closer to the performance of AN/APG-65.

[The Black Swan]

Hmm I can't find the video any more. It was one of the DCS Q&A videos that Wags used to do. I can only find one of them on the DCS YouTube channel now.

 

The reason that ED have given several times for the artificially inflated Cd is that giving missiles 'realistic' ranges at low & medium altitudes results in them having insanely over-inflated range at high altitude.

 

I guess this implies that the atmospheric modelling needs an adjustment at high altitudes, or that missile kinematics needs a tweek for lower air densities, but there we are, that's the reason.

 

That's ok, thanks for the effort.

Maybe it's on bunyap sims channel, as he had some Q&As on there.

 

I guess this means that ranges at high altitude are pretty close to realistic?

At the expense of the lower altitudes I mean.

 

I'm sure they can figure it out eventually though. Hope it gets fixed ;)

[JunMcKill]

That's ok, thanks for the effort.

Maybe it's on bunyap sims channel, as he had some Q&As on there.

 

I guess this means that ranges at high altitude are pretty close to realistic?

At the expense of the lower altitudes I mean.

 

I'm sure they can figure it out eventually though. Hope it gets fixed ;)

 

We have tested the missile speed and ranges at high altitude, and the speed is close to reality, the R-27ER reach 4.5 mach, the AIM-120 mach 4.0, etc (calculated in base of the Altitude MSL, these calculations are based on the International Standard Atmosphere (ISA) & U.S. Standard Atmosphere of 1976).

 

The range is another thing, sometimes the missile guidance begin maneuvering from the very beginning bleeding speed, and in other cases the drag coefficient lower the speed before reach the manufacturer range distance (there is not enough online info about all missiles of DCS)

[GGTharos]

It's really not that simple to test without a flyout graph (one exists for the ER but it's actually really hard to read, it's indirect, and it might be missing some critical info), and what is 'close to reality' is not so easy to determine. The force of drag increase due to higher speed is huge. As the missile slows down, AoA increases and past a certain point this contribution becomes very significant. AFAIK since R-27 seems to use PN all the way, it doesn't have the ability to take the most efficient (for range) flight path, though in a lot of cases it may have great time-to-target characteristics instead :)

 

As for maneuvering, this is where you will really find which missile is superior if we get well implemented guidance, but this should not be news to you :)

Edited March 9, 2017 by GGTharos

[IASGATG]

From the graph you're referring to, a 300m/s launch at 5km alt will travel 28km in 40s before falling back down to 300m/s again.

 

There is plenty more data points but that is enough to think about for now.