Su-27SM

[tflash]

Airforces Monthly reports that a first Su-27SM regiment is operational: 23rd IAP from Dzemgi, with 24 aircraft.

 

Has MFD's, R-77 support and guided A/G support. seems super coolio to me, though as a nostalogic I in fact like the current Su-27P cockpit very much, with these beautiful Breitling-like analog instruments. MFD's are so "cheap", so PC-looky, don't you think?

[GGTharos]

No, I don't. And I'll try to explain why: MFDs give an -incredible- SA boost in every way when used right.

 

And they're not PC-like at all .. .they don't have the frills we're used to - the interface is designed to be highly visible, intuitive, and not confusing for the pilot.

 

You can view data in -many- ways without having to do math in your head.

 

Congrats to Russia on their first Su-27SM squadron, now if they could let us have some Manuals and Pit shots so it could be simulated ... :D

[Pilotasso]

Yeah I would like to see the pit and it carrying the R-77. If so thats the first evidence of the missile entering RU service finaly after so many years. To me thats important to know some sort of modernised version of the flanker is in service but the export versions. I would like to know the difference between all these in terms of detection range and multi engagement capability.

[GGTharos]

Note there's two versions of R-77 ... R-77 is, IIRC, the export missile, and the RVV-AE is -some- version of the R-77, produced domestically by Russia and -not- exported.

[Pilotasso]

Any divulged differences?

[GGTharos]

None that I found reliable sources on ... my guess is as good as your guess, and it could range from:

 

Exact Copy

Better ECCM/Actuators/Fuze

Lofting (original R77 did not loft, IIRC)

etc.

[tflash]

No, I don't. And I'll try to explain why: MFDs give an -incredible- SA boost in every way when used right.

 

And they're not PC-like at all .. .they don't have the frills we're used to - the interface is designed to be highly visible, intuitive, and not confusing for the pilot.

 

 

I knew you would byte the bait ;), but indeed, you are right I saw a real MFD lighted at an airshow and the clarity is exceptional, nothing like a Windows PC-screen. I read somewhere online the Su-27SM is also supposed to have a phased array radar, could this be the case already?

[Pilotasso]

Russians have Phased array technology wich they have avaiable to export, just not bring it operational on their own flankers untill now, if thats the case with this Su-27SM.

 

Im am very interested to get to know this new standard. Its been referred on books for years but we know how the russians have half a dozen different radars and cockpits to equip them in the catalog.

[GGTharos]

This may very already be :)

[nscode]

Note there's two versions of R-77 ... R-77 is, IIRC, the export missile, and the RVV-AE is -some- version of the R-77, produced domestically by Russia and -not- exported.

 

I thought it was vice-versa

[Trident]

The Su-27SM is pretty much a single-seat Su-30MKK. This might be misleading though, because the stuff in the SM is domestic Russian standard equipment, which is highly likely to be superior to its export derivatives (downgraded software...). It is also lighter and should make a better fighter (but inferior strike platform) overall. There is also a small additional display in the cockpit that I'd love to know more about.

 

It is looking increasingly likely that the Su-27SM is but a first stage in an upgrade programme that will culminate in the Su-27BM, which is an all-Russian Su-30MKI avionics suite shoe-horned into a Su-27SM. It is also known as the Su-35 (not to be confused with the Su-27M! Sukhoi strikes again, lol) for new-built export airframes. The BM is going to be scary, it should be more than a ton lighter than a MKI (or the original Su-35) and they're still planning to put (generously) uprated engines in it!

[GGTharos]

Perhaps nscode, I might've messed it up :D

[Force_Feedback]

No, the Russians call their own missile the RVV-AE, but it has the designation of R-77. The missile is the same, although there might be a different seeker installed in the form of the 9b1103M seeker instead of the 9b1103 on the vintage R-77.

 

On the RVV-AE, the MAKS article from the manufacturer of the seeker head says the missile can be launched from a mig-29 up to 80km in front hemisphere, lol, the info was there all the time :P

 

Here is a site of the manufacturer of the seeker heads (they can be placed on a R-27E missile) http://agat.rosprom.org/prod.htm

 

It states that the seeker from 1993 has a datalink mode (gues this means the 9b1103 did not?), and some more interesting things, and you can even read it if you don't know Russian.

[Alfa]

I knew you would byte the bait ;), but indeed, you are right I saw a real MFD lighted at an airshow and the clarity is exceptional, nothing like a Windows PC-screen. I read somewhere online the Su-27SM is also supposed to have a phased array radar, could this be the case already?

 

AFAIK the Su-27SM has the N001V radar(upgraded version of the N001) - also installed in Su-27UBM and Su-30KN upgrades as well as the Su-30MKK(Chinese export). This radar upgrade includes support for the R-77 and additional air-to-surface modes. The phased array bit you read about probably concerns the "Pero" antenna - a rather smart further upgrade solution that turns the N001 radar into an electronically scanned phased array set.

 

Link to NIIP's page on the "Pero" antenna:

http://www.niip.info/main.php?page=raz_sky_pero

 

Some general info on NIIP radar systems for the Su-27 and derrivatives:

http://www.niip.info/main.php?page=raz_sky_su

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Alfa]

The Su-27SM is pretty much a single-seat Su-30MKK. This might be misleading though, because the stuff in the SM is domestic Russian standard equipment, which is highly likely to be superior to its export derivatives (downgraded software...). It is also lighter and should make a better fighter (but inferior strike platform) overall. There is also a small additional display in the cockpit that I'd love to know more about.

 

It is looking increasingly likely that the Su-27SM is but a first stage in an upgrade programme that will culminate in the Su-27BM, which is an all-Russian Su-30MKI avionics suite shoe-horned into a Su-27SM. It is also known as the Su-35 (not to be confused with the Su-27M! Sukhoi strikes again, lol) for new-built export airframes. The BM is going to be scary, it should be more than a ton lighter than a MKI (or the original Su-35) and they're still planning to put (generously) uprated engines in it!

 

I doubt it Trident - the Su-30MKI has the N011M "Bars" phased array radar, which is a derrivative of the N011(planar slotted array) and has nothing to do with the N001 radar - which in turn means that any upgrade involving the Bars would require existing N001 radar to be replaced entirely.

 

All information I have seen concerning Russian Su-27 upgrade inititives talks about pursuing these in 2-3 stages - starting with the N001V(upgraded N001) with R-77 support and air to ground modes, OLS-30M optronic system(with TV channel) and "Pastel" RWS. Then possibly further upgrading the radar by installing the "Pero" phased array antenna at a final stage. In other words a "budget" route closely resembling that chosen by China rather than the all pipes and whistles approach of the Indian Su-30MKI :) .

 

 

- JJ.

[Alfa]

No, the Russians call their own missile the RVV-AE, but it has the designation of R-77. The missile is the same..

 

Actually it seems that they are in fact two different developments over the same design.....and that the RVV-AE is the one intended for export, while the R-77 is the designation for an earlier Soviet version.

 

..although there might be a different seeker installed in the form of the 9b1103M seeker instead of the 9b1103 on the vintage R-77.

 

The seeker head of the "vintage R-77" is called 9B-1348E ;) .

 

The 9B-1103M has been offered as a universial ARH seeker for varies purposes, comes in both a 200 mm and 350 mm version and has been upgraded a couple of times over although the designation remains the same. The 200 mm version has been mentioned in connection with the proposed "R-27AE" ARH version, but I have not yet seen it mentioned in connection with the RVV-AE - note that(on the AGAT page you linked to) there is a seperate section for the RVV-AE, for which the seeker displayed is different from the 9B-1103M versions.....as far as I can see it is still the 9B-1348E - judging from the stated specifications :) .

 

- JJ.

[Vekkinho]

Yeah I would like to see the pit and it carrying the R-77. If so thats the first evidence of the missile entering RU service finaly after so many years. To me thats important to know some sort of modernised version of the flanker is in service but the export versions. I would like to know the difference between all these in terms of detection range and multi engagement capability.

 

No it's not the first time that R-77 missile is entering RU service. They've been here for a while now, I even saw some videoclips of MiG-31 carrying them around on outer pylons. Those pylons however are not modelled in LO and FC MiG-31 model.

 

So I suppose that Ruskies use R-77 for a while now!

[tflash]

Thanks for the info Alfa, nice to see the Russian airforce is fielding all these Flanker goodies to the delight of the Flightsim community!

[Pilotasso]

It remains to be seen how much time we will have to wait for enough info for modeling that aircraft. Since it is the most advanced combat aircraft russias has (with the probable exception of the more powerfull Mig-31) I dont see it hapen any time soon, sadly.

[Alfa]

No it's not the first time that R-77 missile is entering RU service. They've been here for a while now, I even saw some videoclips of MiG-31 carrying them around on outer pylons. Those pylons however are not modelled in LO and FC MiG-31 model.

 

So I suppose that Ruskies use R-77 for a while now!

 

The MiG-31 does not support the R-77 missile - "only" R-33, R-40 and R-60.

 

The video clip you have seen must have concerned the MiG-31M, which was a further development of the MiG-31 with an upgraded and more powerful version of the Zaslon radar(Zaslon-M) which supports the R-77. However, the MiG-31M didn't enter service and only exists in prototype form(a handful or so airframes).

 

- JJ.

[Alfa]

Thanks for the info Alfa, nice to see the Russian airforce is fielding all these Flanker goodies to the delight of the Flightsim community!

 

You are welcome tflash :) . Yes it is about time some of those "new" gadges are finding their way into Russia's operational aircraft :) .

 

- JJ.

[Pilotasso]

Thats a brave statement considering your country could be reached with just internal fuel by those fighters! :D

[Alfa]

Thats a brave statement considering your country could be reached with just internal fuel by those fighters! :D

 

Oh but we got those F-16MLUs you know.......:surrender:.

 

- JJ.

[EvilBivol-1]

The entire R-77 subject is one big ambiguity. Here's what I've been able to sort via various online posts by various people. No supporting documents... The "R-77" is the original, Ukrainian-produced missile, which no longer exists, because Russia's MoD mandated that all in-service systems be fully domestic. Since various parts of the missile (including the seeker) were produced in Ukraine, it was not purchased/used/accepted into Russian service. Instead, Russia began producing its own version, officially referred to as the "RVV-AE". How this version's capabilities differ from the original's is unknown. It was assumed that because much, if not all of its production was for export, it was a "downgraded" version of the original. But this is not necessarily the case, as the "RVV-AE" headed for the Russian AF is exactly the same as what is supplied by Russia for export, except for the use of strictly domestic electronics (hardware components), as opposed to imported electronics used in exported missiles. This distinction actually makes the Russian AF version more expensive and less reliable, a result of domestic industry problems, where even Chinese-manufactured basic elements are more reliable and far cheaper than domestic ones. Its been said that enough "RVV-AE"s are produced for domestic service to cover the needs of the few fighters able to use them, namely the MiG-29S and the Su-27SM.

 

On a related note, the MiG-31 (as perhaps, finally, the -29 as well) is also on the verge of an upgrade program, though no details have been made public yet.

 

On another related note, the "domestic only" rule meant that not only were the R-77s slashed from Russian service, but so were the R-27s, whose seekers were also produced in Ukraine. There was never word on a Russian-produced R-27, which means that the Russian AF is basically living off a decade's old supply of R-27s...

[Pilotasso]

Interesting post.

What about the R-33 and the R-73 missiles?

 

Where did export R-27's came from then?