How To Fight To Win In The F-14

[captain_dalan]

Just read this one. Has this been posted before?

 

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/8282/how-to-fight-to-win-in-the-f-14-a-4-and-f-5-at-the-navys-topgun-school

 

Hope you guys enjoy it.

Cheers and safe flying! :thumbup:

[Rudel_chw]

Looks like excellent reading ... added to my reading bookmarks list ... thanks :D

[captain_dalan]

Looks like excellent reading ... added to my reading bookmarks list ... thanks :D

YW! :thumbup:

 

It was quite the long read as well.

[OnlyforDCS]

Nice read. Slow day at work, so I got through it pretty fast. :)

 

Going up against F5s and A4s is one thing, in DCS we have "real" Soviet jets, I really can't help but wonder how the F14 will perform.

Can't wait for the jet really. This is the one module that I have been waiting for since installing Black Shark all those years ago.

Edited March 14, 2017 by OnlyforDCS

[BlackLion213]

Awesome! Thank you Captain Dalan! :D

 

-Nick

[Robert31178]

One thing I read at some point was about how you had to kinda pre-plan a little mentally before you went in for an attack. the pilot said that the second you turned to engage a bandit everyone in the air knew where you were because of the sheer size of the Tomcat. I always thought that was kinda funny.

 

I think it would apply to Tomcat, but there is a great read on fighting in the F-4 by Robert Wilcox called "The Scream Of Eagles", and in it he engages all of the guys who stood up Top Gun and were evntually MiG killers themselves. they get all sorts of in the weeds on how to fight in a plane with shitloads of power but not so much a turning fighter. I understand the Tomcat can more than hold it's own vs it's western counterparts, but fighting a small MiG would most likely be a different story.

 

I'll couple that with a quote I remember from a Top Gun book I read as a kid. I'm paraphrasing here since I can't find the orginal quote nor who spoke it - "If you are trying to go straight up in an F-14 then all you are doing is turning kerosene into noise." I imagine he was talking about A models since that's what was around when I was a youngster.

 

Thanks for posting the link above, gonna read the bejesus out of it!!

 

~S

[captain_dalan]

....

Going up against F5s and A4s is one thing, in DCS we have "real" Soviet jets, I really can't help but wonder how the F14 will perform.

Can't wait for the jet really. This is the one module that I have been waiting for since installing Black Shark all those years ago.

 

Me too. As for how it will perform.....i guess, as good as the hands behind the stick will allow it. As is the case with all birds out there of similar raw performance. :thumbup: Transitioning from A-10's and F-15's might take some time though. Not a much as transitioning to an Su-27 or MiG-29 (after all, the cockpit layout is still western in origin), but still the HUD is still far more rudimentary then what is now a standard in most western birds.

Personally, i am most into the Alpha. I like idea of mastering temperamental birds.....or cats ;)

 

One thing I read at some point was about how you had to kinda pre-plan a little mentally before you went in for an attack. the pilot said that the second you turned to engage a bandit everyone in the air knew where you were because of the sheer size of the Tomcat. I always thought that was kinda funny.

......

 

This thing apparently helped. When he said the TCS gave them back their Sparrows, i was a bit skeptical. Then last night, on the F-14 association page a guy posted this photo. That is his wingman at 12 miles out. Back in the day, if you could get this kind of an ID at 12 miles, you were in the saddle for BVR. No more visual at the merge require for you. And you could plan your game accordingly based on what you see.

Edited March 15, 2017 by captain_dalan

[Robert31178]

Performance wise it's very similar to the Eagle from everything I have read so far, so I imagine it will do about the same vs Russian jets as the F-15 does? I'm sure the answer is much more technical than I just made it, but seems like a reasonable idea.

[captain_dalan]

Performance wise it's very similar to the Eagle from everything I have read so far, so I imagine it will do about the same vs Russian jets as the F-15 does? I'm sure the answer is much more technical than I just made it, but seems like a reasonable idea.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much my take as well.

[Robert31178]

I know the A's compressor stalls issue will tender that a little bit, but soooooo looking FWd to this. I've been into the F-5 a bit and kinda switched to UH-1 for the long haul until Cat cometh to us.

[Drag0nWIng]

Taylor went to warzone,

hope he can make a collection about his article, include all his post at foxtort and warzone.

[turkeydriver]

I know the A's compressor stalls issue will tender that a little bit, but soooooo looking FWd to this. I've been into the F-5 a bit and kinda switched to UH-1 for the long haul until Cat cometh to us.

 

These shouldn't affect us as long as we avoid throttle movement while maneuvering under high alpha and g. Just set it(afterburner for ACM) and forget it and you shouldn't have to worry about compressor stalls. You can induce them repeatedly easily though if you want to very easily.

[Sideswipe]

I know dog fights didn't usually last very long, but how long could you keep the burners lit before you ran out of go juice?

[pyromaniac4002]

I know dog fights didn't usually last very long, but how long could you keep the burners lit before you ran out of go juice?

 

The F-14 internal fuel load is a couple thousand pounds more than the F-15, so if you're familiar with F-15 burner time in DCS it should be a tiny bit more generous than that.

[BlackLion213]

I know dog fights didn't usually last very long, but how long could you keep the burners lit before you ran out of go juice?

 

About 8 minutes in zone 5 - give or take.

 

Fuel flow at zone 5 was roughly 60,000lbs/hr per engine. Nearly identical for both the TF30 and F110.

 

-Nick

[turkeydriver]

About 8 minutes in zone 5 - give or take.

 

Fuel flow at zone 5 was roughly 60,000lbs/hr per engine. Nearly identical for both the TF30 and F110.

 

-Nick

 

That's at sea level- if we're dogfighting at sea level, we'll burn up the gas quick- higher altitude fights should be more accommodating. With the F-14B, we will be managing the throttle during ACM to avoid putting too much energy on the jet to maintain position- it'll be too easy to overshoot and ruin shots if you're in Max AB with 2 F-110s. You're making plenty of excess energy above 300 knots in most situations except pure vertical, we'll be snapping the wings off the jet for the first few weeks trying to learn to stay in the 330-420kts area and realizing 6.5g is better than 7,8, 9.....12g at winning the dogfight.

Edited March 22, 2017 by turkeydriver

[Hummingbird]

That's at sea level- if we're dogfighting at sea level, we'll burn up the gas quick- higher altitude fights should be more accommodating. With the F-14B, we will be managing the throttle during ACM to avoid putting too much energy on the jet to maintain position- it'll be too easy to overshoot and ruin shots if you're in Max AB with 2 F-110s. You're making plenty of excess energy above 300 knots in most situations except pure vertical, we'll be snapping the wings off the jet for the first few weeks trying to learn to stay in the 330-420kts area and realizing 6.5g is better than 7,8, 9.....12g at winning the dogfight.

 

Well the aircraft can take 13 G's without damage as tested by Grumman, infact the ultimate load limit is exactly the same as the F-15's. So we shouldn't be snapping the wings off of it anymore than with the F-15 at least.

[turkeydriver]

Well the aircraft can take 13 G's without damage as tested by Grumman, infact the ultimate load limit is exactly the same as the F-15's. So we shouldn't be snapping the wings off of it anymore than with the F-15 at least.

 

Oh yes, its plenty strong!! Just meant that the radius and rate at 6.5g is sustained and better for fighting than putting more than that on the jet and bleeding energy. You can put your Hoser Satrapa 12g pull on the jet but you're just going to stop it and be a huge target out of energy. At that point anything can hit you.

[Robert31178]

Just how good was Hoser though? I mean, if it worked for him, then.....? Just curious if that last comment was "do it in emergencies only" or "don't goddamn do it".

[captain_dalan]

Just how good was Hoser though? I mean, if it worked for him, then.....? Just curious if that last comment was "do it in emergencies only" or "don't goddamn do it".

 

Apparently quite good. Some try to qualify him as the master of the slow fight. I on the other hand, i think that like all the other exceptional aviators, pilots and other specialists, his flying defies quantification or qualification.

 

By this i mean, people like him got to know the machines they were flying so well, that they effectively fly "outside" the envelope.

 

Should you pull 10g in your plane (be it f-14 or f-15 or whatever)? My first response would be, why would you even want to? In order for that kind of g to be available to you, you'd need to be going very fast. Very fast means very large turn radius. Considering the speed, it also probably means poor turn rate. Take into account that your wings (set on auto) start folding back after 350+ knots (roughly, depending on altitude), your Cl drops as well, less lift, less g's (that sweep computer was after all set to optimize Ps, not Cl).

 

When would i expect to see 10g in practice?

1.Trying to avoid a midair that came out of nowhere while you are going fast (no time to bleed for an optimal turn) and

2. Throwing your wings out on purpose (sacrificing Ps for Cl) in manual sweep override and living them there as you accelerate. I have no idea what would this do to your wings, but your acceleration isn't going to be happy....

[Robert31178]

Awesome, thanks for the response!!!

[lunaticfringe]

Apparently quite good. Some try to qualify him as the master of the slow fight. I on the other hand, i think that like all the other exceptional aviators, pilots and other specialists, his flying defies quantification or qualification.

 

By this i mean, people like him got to know the machines they were flying so well, that they effectively fly "outside" the envelope.

 

I've thought about this subject quite a bit over time and conversations with a lot of pilots who were in the F-14 before, during, and after his tenure in the type.

 

One of the points I've seen come up on a couple of occasions is the flat spin recovery method and it's lack of distribution to the fleet. First, understand- nobody believes it's BS. The aero presumably works out. Yet, depending on who you talk to, some believe that it was a mistake not to get the money for the confirmation testing, and then distribute it through NATOPS. The others believe it was unnecessary, given the nature of techniques permissible in the F-14 that preclude going beyond the edges in the envelope that would induce it- that it wasn't necessary to get there to kill a hot bandit.

 

And both types of comments stem from people that have gone up against all sorts of machines in DACT with the F-14A and won, and pretty much across time periods for service.

 

Taking everything in, and admittedly never having met Hoser (only spoken to him online on a couple of occasions), that his flying style in a Fate and a Tomcat is something akin to a force of nature. Does it win? Hell yes. Does it use everything the pilot and machine can give? Sure. In the most effective way? Debatable- especially if you stuck Heater, Snort, Frosty, and a number of other well regarded players in the same room and let them go at it.

 

Broadsword vs. longsword versus epee- every one of them is a sword, and every one of them will kill you, but each is used differently.

 

2. Throwing your wings out on purpose (sacrificing Ps for Cl) in manual sweep override and living them there as you accelerate. I have no idea what would this do to your wings, but your acceleration isn't going to be happy....

 

You can't undersweep in manual override, only oversweep.

[addde]

2. Throwing your wings out on purpose (sacrificing Ps for Cl) in manual sweep override and living them there as you accelerate. I have no idea what would this do to your wings, but your acceleration isn't going to be happy....

 

I dont think you can ever sweep less than the computor wants, only more.

[captain_dalan]

Awesome, thanks for the response!!!

 

Yw, it's a pleasure! :thumbup:

 

Taking everything in, and admittedly never having met Hoser (only spoken to him online on a couple of occasions), that his flying style in a Fate and a Tomcat is something akin to a force of nature. Does it win? Hell yes. Does it use everything the pilot and machine can give? Sure. In the most effective way? Debatable- especially if you stuck Heater, Snort, Frosty, and a number of other well regarded players in the same room and let them go at it.

 

Broadsword vs. longsword versus epee- every one of them is a sword, and every one of them will kill you, but each is used differently.

 

Yeah, i think i get what you're saying, and i think we agree on it. Again, for me that kind of flying is difficult to quantify.

 

I

You can't undersweep in manual override, only oversweep.

I dont think you can ever sweep less than the computor wants, only more.

 

I didn't mean using the manual override, but the emergency wing sweep handle (the one besides the throttles), not the one on the HOTAS. And not actually undersweeping it, but setting to say 22 degrees and living it there with the case open. I know, a can of worms if it can be done.

[Drag0nWIng]

how to?

transform in to battroid mod and shoot them all into space ash.