Another Take on the Cobra's Purpose

[Colt40Five]

The 'cobra' maneuver... where the Flanker pitchers [vertically] to over 100 degrees is not a stunt, it is a missile launch maneuver for a over-the-shoulder launch on a passing head-on target by an IMFIL missile, as briefed to me by the Director of TsAGI. German Zagainov."

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/11/amraam-deploying-developing-americas-mediumrange-airair-missile-updated/index.php

[GGTharos]

On a passing head-on target....okay... :D

 

You can excute a hook if you have enough separation. You had better not miss, because you won't survive his missile either, hanging around at 90kph. If you think its a fair trade though ...

[Pilotasso]

try aiming anything while you pull the cobra ingame.

 

You need thrust vectoring to keep it long enough for that but remenber youll be looking like a blimp not a fighter.

[nscode]

you aim before doing it.. you just release when you're in it :)

 

or you go into vertical scan, where the lock is automatic and again just fire (this is in game.. suppose the real thing wouldn't lock in time, but the first method stands)

[Ardillita]

In that article it is interesting to note this too:

 

"and there are also reports that the R-77 can be launched and 'handed off' to another aircraft."

[D-Scythe]

The 'cobra' maneuver... where the Flanker pitchers [vertically] to over 100 degrees is not a stunt, it is a missile launch maneuver for a over-the-shoulder launch on a passing head-on target by an IMFIL missile, as briefed to me by the Director of TsAGI. German Zagainov."

 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/11/amraam-deploying-developing-americas-mediumrange-airair-missile-updated/index.php

 

Passing head-on target? You do realize that both the Flanker and the target would both be transonic right? There's no way a Flanker would be able to pull a Cobra transonic, and if it's slow enough that it enters the merge at Cobra speeds, than it has already lost the dogfight.

 

Nobody bleeds away energy intentionally to sell the farm on a shot that may or may not work.

[Pilotasso]

you aim before doing it.. you just release when you're in it :)

 

or you go into vertical scan, where the lock is automatic and again just fire (this is in game.. suppose the real thing wouldn't lock in time, but the first method stands)

 

^^^^if your missiles are thrust vectored and you already have your helmet aimed whats the purpose of the cobra anyway?

 

Unless the engineers made the mistake of giving the EOS more angle off than the missile is capable of. Everything I've seen about thrust vectored missiles is that their the ones to challenge the sensors gimball limits not the other way arround.

[GGTharos]

In that article it is interesting to note this too:

 

"and there are also reports that the R-77 can be launched and 'handed off' to another aircraft."

 

 

AMRAAM has been doing such a thing since day 1.

[GGTharos]

^^^^if your missiles are thrust vectored and you already have your helmet aimed whats the purpose of the cobra anyway?

 

 

Shooting across a lufberry or two-circle ...

[Ardillita]

AMRAAM has been doing such a thing since day 1.

 

 

Did I asked that? well, the same way like you was happy with the raptor´s cobra, the flanker did that since day 1 ;)

[ViperEagle]

Ok...one little problem with the Kobra/Cobra/Snake-named-manuver.

 

Dogfights are all about energy, energy is LIFE. This article plays on the assumption that you can have enough time to :

 

1. See your approaching attacker (This is assuming you havent eaten a SARH or ARH missile before this at a head-on aspect shot).

 

2. Plan your movements, and target him (Why wouldnt you shoot him now? he's approaching you, a headon shot, at a fast closing rate)

 

3. in the instant split second where your two aircraft merge and pass, you instantly drop yourself to near zero airspeed and zero energy, flip back to take a shot at a target that is already past you and is likely accelerating away or into a turn.

 

You, attempting to regain power and energy, are now on a defensive position, facing away from your attacker.

 

 

Or lets presume you were already IN a defensive posture, you just brought yourself slow and killed your energy...for what? You just made yourself a very nice, large target for a gunzo, heater or fox 3 kill.

 

 

The F-22, F-15 and F-16 can do the cobra, the F-22 can do a "true" cobra". You dont see the USAF touting the Cobra as it's hallmark manuver that will truly kill any opponent. I've even see a F-22 pilot call it "that airshow trick".

[nscode]

Dogfights are all about situations, and life is life. At any given moment you have more energy than life. The proof of this is that even if your life is gone, you still have energy to fall to the ground. :D Why you haven't used that energy before you wasted your life is up to you. An exception is when you drive your self into the ground, like one mig-23 AI did in front of me last night :D

 

 

The way I see it, it IS a "stunt". It's a presentation of engine and airframe endurance. Now somebody is gonna say: but they can't do it every day. Yes. But you can't do it once... and keep flying. F-22 comes close, but what others are doing is pure display made to look close to it; saying "heey we can do this manouver we call useless too.." and they do it without it's primary elements, just making them look funney to someone who knows what the stuff is about.

 

As for combat use.. it is very limited. And if your opponent is bad enough to let you get within those limits, you can deal with him without it.

[ViperEagle]

Dogfights are all about situations, and life is life. At any given moment you have more energy than life. The proof of this is that even if your life is gone, you still have energy to fall to the ground. :D Why you haven't used that energy before you wasted your life is up to you. An exception is when you drive your self into the ground, like one mig-23 AI did in front of me last night :D

 

 

The way I see it, it IS a "stunt". It's a presentation of engine and airframe endurance. Now somebody is gonna say: but they can't do it every day. Yes. But you can't do it once... and keep flying. F-22 comes close, but what others are doing is pure display made to look close to it; saying "heey we can do this manouver we call useless too.." and they do it without it's primary elements, just making them look funney to someone who knows what the stuff is about.

 

As for combat use.. it is very limited. And if your opponent is bad enough to let you get within those limits, you can deal with him without it.

 

Actually, based on what was seen at Nellis last week...the F-22 can do a "real" cobra, and do it very well.

[Maximus_G]

Actually, based on what was seen at Nellis last week...the F-22 can do a "real" cobra, and do it very well.

Of course... the guys who made it real for the Raptor, and moreover, "taught" the bird to perform very well at those contitions, knew what they were doing.

[Pilotasso]

The F-22, F-15 and F-16 can do the cobra, the F-22 can do a "true" cobra". You dont see the USAF touting the Cobra as it's hallmark manuver that will truly kill any opponent. I've even see a F-22 pilot call it "that airshow trick".

 

 

USAF will never teach to do the cobra for a simple fact, the F-16 will enter a flat spin past 32 degrees angle of attack. Such spins in the falcon are very difficult to recover from. Same for F-15.

 

The F-22 cant do the cobra either although it is capable of some high angle of attack feats that have yet to be matched by any other fighter like sustained 60º AOA barrel roll.

[vistrel]

Sry for n00b question, but how do you pull off Cobra in Lomac:FC ? :music_whistling:

[firesoldier845]

Sry for n00b question, but how do you pull off Cobra in Lomac:FC ? :music_whistling:

 

I think it's the "K" key then when you pull back on the stick it will work. I am not 100% sure cause I have it on a button on my stick but think it's "K" key.

 

Also I would agree with one of the posters in this thread. Energy is life, energy is one of the basic fundamentals of A2A combat. The cobra is pretty cool at air shows and stuff and I imagine it could work in real combat in certain situations maybe 1 on 1, but I think pretty useless in a multiplane engagement. I wonder though if it could be done to break doppler radar lock, sorta like when in the notch because your movement is so slow it might be filtered out??? anyone know?? Was reading an article on COPE exercise and Indian SU-30 pilots were able to quickly turn direction and enter notch and break F-15 radar lock. Don't know how much truth to it though with all the propaganda out there on the net but it sounds possible.

[GGTharos]

I think it's the "K" key then when you pull back on the stick it will work. I am not 100% sure cause I have it on a button on my stick but think it's "K" key.

 

Also I would agree with one of the posters in this thread. Energy is life, energy is one of the basic fundamentals of A2A combat. The cobra is pretty cool at air shows and stuff and I imagine it could work in real combat in certain situations maybe 1 on 1, but I think pretty useless in a multiplane engagement. I wonder though if it could be done to break doppler radar lock, sorta like when in the notch because your movement is so slow it might be filtered out??? anyone know?? Was reading an article on COPE exercise and Indian SU-30 pilots were able to quickly turn direction and enter notch and break F-15 radar lock. Don't know how much truth to it though with all the propaganda out there on the net but it sounds possible.

 

It is true, but keep in mind that an F-15 has zero problems doing the exact same thing ... in addition, if you do use a Kobra to enter the notch and you have a missile coming your way, guided by an aircraft tracking you in STT, you might find that you need to either stay in the notch (and thus commit to a ur, um, forced landing -or- turn away from the bandit) or you'll try to come out of it, but you are now defensive: There's a missile on the way, and if you anything but turn and run you're likely to get pummeled.

 

Also, once you turn into the notch, the attacking fighter can just go to heaters, if you're close enough. A Change of flight direction may also 'bring you out of the notch' and he may continue his RH missile attack.

 

It's all quite complicated I think ;)

 

Also keep in mind that F-15s were precluded from using AMRAAMs in COPE India - they were using SARH missiles instead. In addition, no advanced EW/radar modes/whatever was use by either side.

 

This means that COPE India is inconclusive when it comes to a comparison of hardware capability.

[S77th-GOYA]

Also keep in mind that F-15s were precluded from using AMRAAMs in COPE India

 

Wasn't it "first lock = win" in that exercise? It really doesn't matter which missile they didn't release, does it?

[Force_Feedback]

try aiming anything while you pull the cobra ingame.

 

You need thrust vectoring to keep it long enough for that but remenber youll be looking like a blimp not a fighter.

 

And you should remember that in real life not all cobras end at 250 kph and 0 AoA... Just look at some real cobra videos, and you'll notice that the amount of time varies, true, the longer you wait the more you slow down, but that's air slowing your plane down. Stop thinking lomac, and think real world, where you also can turn off the AoA limiter, making very tight turns. Again, not so useful in gunzo when energy play in important, but very handy when you need to shove a R-73 ur something's tailpipes (fuselage/cockpit actually).

[firesoldier845]

 

Also keep in mind that F-15s were precluded from using AMRAAMs in COPE India - they were using SARH missiles instead. In addition, no advanced EW/radar modes/whatever was use by either side.

 

This means that COPE India is inconclusive when it comes to a comparison of hardware capability.

 

It all depends on the source. I've read exactly what your are saying BUT I've also read that the F-15s were allowed to use AMRAMM but were not allowed to do simulated fire over 20 miles (isn't that close to the max range anyway?) There's so much BS about COPE India floating around though it's hard to say. Not saying your wrong, just saying different sources make different claims\conclusions about COPE India.

[D-Scythe]

Nope, the F-15s were simulating PAF F-16As and F-7s (or whatever). No AMRAAMs.

 

It's all about politics. The F-15Cs did "badly" because the USAF desperately "needs" the F-22A.

[press]

As a pilot it`s good to know that my aircraft won`t go berserk if I pull high AoA. This is the point of the Cobra: maneuvreing at high AoA. During a dogfight I know I can pull the crap out of my Sukhoi without getting into much trouble...just some vibrations. I know that my engine won`t flame out, the plane won`t spin out of control...my only focus is to maintain energy for maneuvreing to shoot the the enemy down. If I`m in a position when I consider that doing the Cobra will save my butt I will do it. It`s good to know my plane can do it. I know my enemy doesn`t have my maneuvring advantage and I can use it against him. This is the whole point.

[Pilotasso]

India wanted to train against a force of similar constitution as the pakistani AF F-16's with sidwinders only, and the US wanted experience about some planes in the IAF. They both agreed to compromise the exercicses with these objectives in mind. So the F-16's were fighting Flankers with Sidwinders only and no AWACS. The Indian aircraft were allowed to use BVR missiles at 20 miles and had the full support of AWACS.

 

Bear in mind that a missile shot call is automaticaly awarded with a kill. Theres was no chance to judge missile perfomance (although in some training ranges it is).

 

If AMRAAM played and missile perfomance was to be simulated the results would be very different.

[nscode]

Don't think so. Only introducing AWACS would.