R-27EA (AE) on Su-27

[Force_Feedback]

Argh, here are the pics of the EA seekers, yes it's no fantasy, and maybe China bought them in 2004-2005, but I don't know for sure. http://www.agat.rosprom.org/prod.htm

 

It's the manufacturers site, so no more speculative whining on the seeker

[Pilotasso]

Dunno why the relevance of the seeker picture when we all know the product exists, not in russian services, and unknown if its in chinas.

 

The real problem here is to make recognize the EA frame from the others. Even if china does have them it still isnt realistic to give the Su-27 R-27EA's since russia has rejected the missile.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Since when did "proposed" equate to "fantasy"? Don't make me post pictures of the ASAT. :D

[GGTharos]

I wish we had some of those - I could knock a flanker out across the crimea and it wouldn't even know what hit it! :D

 

All you need is a lil' datalink ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...what WAS the range of the ASAT anyway? I know it was something outrageous.

[GGTharos]

It was supposed to hit sattelites in LEO, so perhaps up to 200km, going into *orbit*. Launched for distance in the air, we'd probably see several hundred KM.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Thanks, Force_Feedback for that link as well.

 

All one need to do is to look at the seeker specifications (translated into English) to see that this seeker will fit in R-27 family missiles. The next question is what radar system is needed to launch such a missile?

 

One must remember that Lock On, Flaming Cliffs and Black Shark does not model or simulate economical situation of Soviet Union or USA. If it did, USA would bankrupt long time ago due to number of AIM-120 launched in on line games. AIM-120 is nowadays app. 400 000 US dollars right?

[Pilotasso]

Thanks, Foece_Feedback for that link as well.

 

Doesnt even help bringing the R-27EA on the Su-27 by a long shot. and let me remind you that you have said before it should be out of the game ,after you supported it ingame several times including now.

[nscode]

lol... the same company is producing missile seekers and

 

the

UROFLOWMETER

 

 

lol

[GGTharos]

One must also remember that LOMAC does not model the political situation which led to the R-27EA never being put into service, but you can easily model this, too.

 

And, what are you talking about? Russia wouldn't have been bankrupt by all the number of R-27, R-77 and R-73's being tossed around inthe game, and MiGs and Flankers being shot down?

 

 

That was the LAMEST attempt at justifying something from you YET.

[Guest IguanaKing]

It was supposed to hit sattelites in LEO, so perhaps up to 200km, going into *orbit*. Launched for distance in the air, we'd probably see several hundred KM.

 

I was just reading a little about it, one successful intercept was made by launching at 38,100'. That launch apparently hit a target vehicle which was orbiting at 345 nautical miles above the earth. It didn't say anything about slant-range though...to say nothing of the gravitational pull it was having to overcome to hit something that far above it.

[Guest IguanaKing]

 

One must remember that Lock On, Flaming Cliffs and Black Shark does not model or simulate economical situation of Soviet Union or USA. If it did, USA would bankrupt long time ago due to number of AIM-120 launched in on line games. AIM-120 is nowadays app. 400 000 US dollars right?

 

Heh...don't forget that if that were to happen, HL servers would only allow pilots of Russian equipment about 20-40 hours per year of flight time. ;)

[Dudikoff]

All one need to do is to look at the seeker specifications (translated into English) to see that this seeker will fit in R-27 family missiles. The next question is what radar system is needed to launch such a missile?

 

Well, using the MiG-29S (9-13S) as an example, obviously the slightly modified version of the same radar.

 

One must remember that Lock On, Flaming Cliffs and Black Shark does not model or simulate economical situation of Soviet Union or USA. If it did, USA would bankrupt long time ago due to number of AIM-120 launched in on line games. AIM-120 is nowadays app. 400 000 US dollars right?

 

LOL, this is really getting desperate.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

That was the LAMEST attempt at justifying something from you YET.

Heey, take it easy amigo. :) :) Calm down, be a man, take a joke. BTW, one of the reasons Soviet Union went bankrupt was overspending on weapons and military. :smilewink:

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Well, using the MiG-29S (9-13S) as an example, obviously the slightly modified version of the same radar.

Do you have a photograph showing that?

LOL, this is really getting desperate.

Relax my friend, it was suppose to be a joke. :smilewink:

[TucksonSonny]

Heey, take it easy amigo. :) :) Calm down, be a man, take a joke. BTW, one of the reasons Soviet Union went bankrupt was overspending on weapons and military. :smilewink:

 

Technically speaking the Soviet Union was NOT bankrupt but running out of cash while having no debts.

Virtually the USA is almost bankrupt now and has all the trouble of the world to pay their debts.;)

On the other hand private citizens and companies in the US are not...

[Alfa]

Okay, but you better know how to read Russian.

 

[snip]...

 

It then continues describing the 'datalink', or better called, 'INS with radio correction' of the R-27ET. It also states that the missile has a mode in the event of a lack of outside target designation (by radar or eos), which can be set by the pilot.

 

Force_Feedback,

 

This is getting ridiculous - please read the ENGLISH text in the article I posted by the CHIEF DESIGNER of VYMPEL.

 

R-27 (AA10) Unified Medium/Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile

 

 

The R-27 AAM was designed to ensure air superiority in aerial duels. The missile design concept was based on the requirement to optimally fit two significantly different classes of aircraft: light front-line fighter and multirole air-superiority fighter. While the front-line fighters require a compact medium-range missile, the multirole fighters need a weapon with a considerably longer range.

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A unified missile system was developed. It could use missiles of two weight versions and featured a high degree of commonality of components (control section, warhead, structural elements, and fixed and control surfaces). However, the missiles are equipped with different propulsors (basic version, designated R-27; and high-power version, designated R-27E). The latter's launch weight exceeds that of the basic version 1.4 times.

 

In addition, both versions are equipped with interchangeable homing head modules: semi-active radar homing head and passive IR homing head. Use of the missiles equipped with different homing head types increases the probability of hitting a target.

 

The modular design of the R-27 missile has made it possible to develop a system with unique performance characteristics having no analogs in Russia or abroad. Owing to the system's modular design, its considerable modernization potentialities can easily be utilized to improve design and performance characteristics by 25 to 30 percent.

 

New solutions used in the R-27 design include:

 

– the missile has a canard aerodynamic configuration with axisymmetric cruciform aerodynamic surfaces and complex-geometry aerodynamic control surfaces. They feature high-aspect ratio, variable leading-edge sweep, and narrowed root (the so-called "butterfly" configuration). This made it possible to use them in the differential mode for pitch and yaw control/stabilization as well as roll stabilization. The configuration of the control surfaces ensures the constant sign of roll moment within the whole range of Mach number and eliminates the so-called "reverse effect" typical of the canard configuration;

 

– destabilizers are installed on the homing head body forward of control planes. When the head is replaced by another type, constant static stability reserve is maintained by changing the area of the destabilizers;

 

– the missile stabilization principle and the autopilot equipment used to implement it provide for the missile's high dynamic characteristics in all flight modes, aeroelastic stability and compensation of launch disturbances for both missile versions which significantly differ in terms of weight, inertia, and stiffness characteristics. To adapt to a wide range of flight conditions, a nonlinear law of missile control surfaces manipulation is used to change coefficients depending on the flight time, altitude, and speed;

 

– the missile equipped with a radar homing head uses a combined guidance method which makes it possible to fully exploit the missile's ballistic capabilities which exceed the homing head's target acquisition range 2 or 2.5 times. In the initial phase, the missile uses inertial guidance to head for a calculated target position. The target position and speed data are then corrected via a data link. In the terminal phase, after locking on the target, the missile is controlled by the homing head;

 

– to guide the missile in the initial phase, the aircraft control system calculates its position in the inertial reference coordinate system common for the aircraft and the missile and generates initial targeting data and radiocorrection commands. The missile's reference coordinate system is generated by the platform's navigation system. The role of a gymbal stabilized in three axes is played by the antenna's gyro unit, whose initial orientation is aligned with the aircraft reference coordinate system prior to launch;

 

– the secondary processing of data in the radar homing head is accomplished by nonstationary Calman filters arranged in the form of a kinematic chain model. Prior to target lock-on, these filters operate in the relative target path prediction mode, their signals control the homing head's antenna and are used to generate the missile guidance law;

 

– guidance of a missile equipped with either the radar homing head that locks on the target in flight, or the IR homing head that locks on the target while the missile is still suspended from the carrier-aircraft attachment points, is accomplished with use of a proportional navigation method. In some cases, corrections are introduced into the guidance law applicable to the radar-guided missiles to optimize their flight trajectories for best performance of the radar homing head and proximity fuse. For example, to avoid a stream of clutter by taking the missile out of the aircraft radar's primary beam or provide for a diving attack on the target at a preset angle.

 

The R-27T (ET) missile, equipped with the IR homing head, is a version of R-27R (ER). Continuous operation time with the photodetector cooling system switched on is three hours. Provision is made in the IR homing head for a system designed to ensure its operation (with some decrease in the target acquisition range) if the aircraft is not filled with cooling agent before takeoff.

 

When a target is locked on, the carrier's information system furnishes target angle data to the missile. Once the seeker acquires the target, the missile locks onto it and switches over to the automatic tracking mode. If there are no data inputs from the carrier-aircraft systems, the missile operates autonomously. This operating mode is set by the pilot from his cockpit.

 

As regards the missile's resistance to jamming, it meets both Russian and NATO standards. Protection against natural noise is effected by operating the photodetector in a certain spectral band and the incoming data processing in the input channel of the IR homing head. Target discrimination techniques ensure highly effective protection against optical, modulated and flicker jamming signals masking the target, as well as against the direct effect of laser radiation.

 

The missile's structural elements are made mainly from titanium alloy. The casings of both motors are made from steel.

 

The same rail- and ejection-type suspensions are used by both missile versions. The APU-470 rail launcher is attached to wing pylons, while the AKU-470 can be attached both to wing and fuselage pylons. When the missile is launched, its launch lugs are released from the rail launcher simultaneously. From the ejection-type launcher, the missile is separated by a lever motion mechanism actuated by a pneumatic drive

 

The text is swithching forth and back between the characteristics of the radar homing and IR homing version - I guess the Russian text in the book you quote does the same, which has lead someone(including you it seems) to incorrectly think characteristics described for the radar version also applies to the IR version. What you should pay attention to is this very specific passage (that I highlighted in red) used to distinguish the two versions:

 

"guidance of a missile equipped with either the radar homing head that locks on the target in flight, or the IR homing head that locks on the target while the missile is still suspended from the carrier-aircraft attachment points..

 

The IR homing version needs the seeker to lock on to target before launch......which in turn should put an end to the discusssion about "radio corrected INS" or "Maddogging" of the R-27T/TE :) .

 

As for these bits:

 

It also can be that the author meant the R-27(E)R had such form of correction..

 

Yes that is exactly the case :) .

 

....in any case it makes sense as the seekers can't actually work at 70km or so when a R-27ET is employed, and would rely on target designation by the launcher's radar, same goes for the ER, but it also has some kind of lofting profile, extending its range (forgot which system commands such a profile, either the launcher platform WCS, or the missile itself). It states that the range of the ballistic capabilities of the missile (R-27R) exceed 2 to 2.5 times the range of the seeker head lock range.

 

The acquisition range of the 9B-1101 SARH seeker is stated as being ~ 25 km against a head-on target of RCS=5m2......with a considerable drop against a receeding one.

 

The acquisition range of the IR seeker is stated as being 10-15 km against a head-on target, but up to 40 km against a fighter type target receeding at full military thrust.

 

The R-27TE was designed to chase down receeding targets - i.e. a situation where the IR seeker acquisition range in fact can exceed the missile's launch range because it(the missile) has to chase down a target moving away from it......hence the reason for mounting the IR seeker on a missile body(R-27E) with a wacking big rocket engine.

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Pilotasso]

Alfa they should upgrade your menbership rep status. Its long overdue. Cheers m8! :)

 

Well I guess thats that, another crysis averted! :D

[Alfa]

I don't know Pilotasso - it seems this R-27 debacle concerning existance of radio corrected/"maddog´able" -ETs or operational ARH homing -EAs is a never ending one regardless of how much documentation to the contrary we provide.

 

....sigh!

 

- JJ.

[EvilBivol-1]

It then continues describing the 'datalink', or better called, 'INS with radio correction' of the R-27ET. It also states that the missile has a mode in the event of a lack of outside target designation (by radar or eos), which can be set by the pilot.

I don't know FF... It only says that target information is passed onto the missile from the carrier aircraft. In the even that this is unavailable, there is provision of "autonomous" operation of the missile, selectable by the pilot. To me, this simply means using the seeker to target the missile, i.e. Fi0 targeting mode.

[Force_Feedback]

I don't know FF... It only says that target information is passed onto the missile from the carrier aircraft. In the even that this is unavailable, there is provision of "autonomous" operation of the missile, selectable by the pilot. To me, this simply means using the seeker to target the missile, i.e. Fi0 targeting mode.

 

That is very likely, I never stated that the ET has loal capability, and the text probably came directly from that Vympel site article. What is their site btw, I had it a while ago in my favorites, but can't find it anymore.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

“Soviet/Russian Aircraft Weapons Since World War Two” by Yefim Gordon, page 48, quote:

 

“This (R27-AE) makes it the first Russian missile to utilize the fire and forgot principle …” end of quote.

 

Further in the same paragraph, quote:

 

“Outwardly the R-27AE can be discerned from the R-27ER by the conical shape of the radome instead of the usual ogival one, a feature which has reduced overall length by 45 mm (1 49/64 in).”

[hitman]

OH look a photo of the Loch Ness monster! That proves it. Phew! glad to have that matter resolved.

 

 

http://www.lochness.co.uk/livecam/images/lochnessmonster.jpg

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=678100&fr=yfp-t-501

[hitman]

Heh...what WAS the range of the ASAT anyway? I know it was something outrageous.

It was designed to reach targets at 350 miles altitude and launched from an F-15 at 90k. I remember reading about this as a kid. ;)

 

http://www.vought.com/heritage/products/html/asat.html

[Alfa]

Someone needs to smack Yefim Gordon over the head with something heavy :D

 

This (R27-AE) makes it the first Russian missile to utilize the fire and forgot principle

 

Eh no because:

 

a). every IR homing missile "utilizes the fire & forget principle".

 

b). the R-27AE never made it into production, so the first Russian radar guided air to air missile to be "fire & forget" would be the R-77.

 

I am also quite sceptical about the alleged difference in radome shape - why would there be a difference.....I mean the shape is derrived for aerodynamic reasons, while there is nothing about the employement of an ARH seeker that would warrant a change to the radome shape.

 

Me thinks someone saw an R-27 missile with its red radome protective cover(which is conical) and thought the shape was representative of the shape of the actual radome underneath :) .