R-27EA (AE) on Su-27

[GGTharos]

I don't think this can be fixed without a more modern/complex scanning algorithm and at least a modest INS implementation for the missiles :/

 

90% of the people have become specialists in obtaining kills that way. No one cares about supporting their shots anymore. Thats why Im wayting for BS so hard. It will return some truth to it again. Hopefully maddogs at 20 miles (or break lock to run away 20 miles before TTA) will be a thing of the past, and that includes the AMRAAM (It starts to be as serious as the ET was months back and thats ALOT :D )

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker by Yefim Gordon and Peter Davidson, page 57, top right hand corner, a picture shows Su-27K (Su-33) with R-27 missile with radome exactly in the shape of cone.

 

R-27 with the same shape (conical) radome is on the page #29 on Su-27SKM (sereeynyy kommehrcheskiy modernizeerovannyy, export updated variant of the basic S model) of the same book. Incidentaly, that same airplane (Su-27SKM #305) is in the “Soviet/Russian Aircraft Weapons” book, on page 189. This time in color and much larger picture. Clearly seen is the R-27 with the radome in conical shape.

 

It looks like there is some merit in what Yefim Gordon was talking about the radome shape between ER and AE missiles.

 

R-27 missiles on all of the pictures mentioned above, have black stripes on them designating inert missiles.

 

I wish somebody on this forum has these books so that I could share my findings.

[hitman]

I never thought they made a wheelchair with a roll bar...and heres a picture, but I dont think they make em.

[golfsierra2]

So just because you saw a picture doen that mean that the missile is in use?

 

Exactly. Pictures of what could be a mockup for display purposes or even a prototype missile is no proof at all that the R-27AE ever entered service.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

So just because you saw a picture doen that mean that the missile is in use?

 

Exactly. Pictures of what could be a mockup for display purposes or even a prototype missile is no proof at all that the R-27AE ever entered service.

 

Photographs of Su-27 carrying live ordinance are very rare. Soviet Union/Russia was not involved in a war where it really needed Su-27 much, if any. Therefore, most of the publicly available pictures of Su-27 are with inert missiles.

 

When it comes to AE missile, we know that the seeker head actually exist and it is on sale. Even the range of that active seeker is specified for the R-27 type of missile. Click here for details about the Agat ARH seeker head.

 

There is no question about the fact that the R-27AE actually exist. The question is which generation of the Su-27 is able to use it and which Soviet Union/Russian squadron was equipped with it?

[Fjordmonkey]

I've read through this thread and also done a bit of research on my own, but I've yet to find evidence, in this thread or other places, for the missile's existence in an operational enviroment (aka hung under the wing and used by a frontline Russian/Soviet Su-27-squadron).

 

The R-27 exists. That's undeniable.

The seeker-head exists. That's undeniable.

The R-27AE exists and is in use, or have been in use, on the other hand, IS deniable. There's no proof, as all other weapons depicted in this thread are either captives, dummies or other versions of the R-27.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the range of a missile seeker-head has less to do with the missile-type it's bolted onto than a cow has similarities to a fish.

[Force_Feedback]

Listen, saying a missile is in service because a plane carries a live version of it is silly. Hajduk is right, most pictures of the Su-27 feature mock-up ordnance because most flights are training flights (Russia hasn't invaded a country with a real airforce yet), on training flights it is preferable to not being blown up if some technical glitch should occur. Also the 'plane bin laden jihadist' paranoia is far and far less than that in the US and some allied countries like Holland, the UK (lol, fluid limits, tards). So comparing the operational needs in peacetime should be done with that in mind, they are not going to shoot down planes every 15 minutes or shoot some third world country airforce. Ok, that settled, why would they ever fly with live missiles?

 

You can get some certainty on the 'liveness' of a R-27 if you look at the base of the fins, if there are rivets connecting an L-shaped metal strip, that is holding the fins. Then it's a model missile. Real R-27s are more aerodynamic and don't have anything sticking out near the guidance canards or the back fins. Also keep in mind that some parts of the R-27 are made in Ukraine, so Russia has now at least 15 year old 'airframes'. Now I know they probably made some deals for new engines. I know Ukraine is offering an active version of the R-27E for export since last year. Knowing the half-*ssed way things are probably done there, I'd say those are your R-27EAs from the 1990-ies, with the same, 'old' design.

Also remember that the R-27 is not very reliable, it is the Aim-7M (actually the R-24 is) of the Soviet Union, be it with longer range, but longer range to hit nothing is still useless.

 

Also, information the the R-27P is very scarse, most Su-27 airforce pilots don't even know that it exists, and yet here we go, people saying the R-27P is ineffective and all other kinds of bullcrap. Yes those missiles are/were in service, but only in small numbers. And there is not much reliable (ie, not 'export made') information on them. So having these moddled in some kind of sim is just like having the aim-120D-C99-2347823-1324723 or whatever, impossible.

 

Let ED fix the R-27ER first, in real life the thing just can't lock onto a target while fired 70km out, therefor it it first guided in INS only until it reaches an intercept point, after which it actually starts homing onto the reflected radiation.

[golfsierra2]

There is no question about the fact that the R-27AE actually exist. The question is which generation of the Su-27 is able to use it and which Soviet Union/Russian squadron was equipped with it?

 

The way you put it, still that would imply that the R-27AE went into mass production and entered service - and I still doubt that. There is no proof of the R-27AE being a missile in service yet. So the question, which version of the Su-27 can fire it and which squadrons are using this missile is way to far out.

 

EDIT:

The best sources I could find so far are:

 

http://home19.inet.tele.dk/airwing/aircraft/a2a.htm

stating that the seeker head is of the 9B-1103M-type

 

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/334/anketa.htm

listing several different versions of the 9B-1103M seeker

[HubMan]

Listen, saying a missile is in service because a plane carries a live version of it is silly. Hajduk is right, most pictures of the Su-27 feature mock-up ordnance because most flights are training flights (Russia hasn't invaded a country with a real airforce yet), on training flights it is preferable to not being blown up if some technical glitch should occur. Also the 'plane bin laden jihadist' paranoia is far and far less than that in the US and some allied countries like Holland, the UK (lol, fluid limits, tards). So comparing the operational needs in peacetime should be done with that in mind, they are not going to shoot down planes every 15 minutes or shoot some third world country airforce. Ok, that settled, why would they ever fly with live missiles?

 

You can get some certainty on the 'liveness' of a R-27 if you look at the base of the fins, if there are rivets connecting an L-shaped metal strip, that is holding the fins. Then it's a model missile. Real R-27s are more aerodynamic and don't have anything sticking out near the guidance canards or the back fins. Also keep in mind that some parts of the R-27 are made in Ukraine, so Russia has now at least 15 year old 'airframes'. Now I know they probably made some deals for new engines. I know Ukraine is offering an active version of the R-27E for export since last year. Knowing the half-*ssed way things are probably done there, I'd say those are your R-27EAs from the 1990-ies, with the same, 'old' design.

Also remember that the R-27 is not very reliable, it is the Aim-7M (actually the R-24 is) of the Soviet Union, be it with longer range, but longer range to hit nothing is still useless.

 

Also, information the the R-27P is very scarse, most Su-27 airforce pilots don't even know that it exists, and yet here we go, people saying the R-27P is ineffective and all other kinds of bullcrap. Yes those missiles are/were in service, but only in small numbers. And there is not much reliable (ie, not 'export made') information on them. So having these moddled in some kind of sim is just like having the aim-120D-C99-2347823-1324723 or whatever, impossible.

 

Let ED fix the R-27ER first, in real life the thing just can't lock onto a target while fired 70km out, therefor it it first guided in INS only until it reaches an intercept point, after which it actually starts homing onto the reflected

radiation.

Hi Force_Feedback,

 

Are you sure of that ? Because the Alamo C is supposed to be guided by datalink updates during the first part of a long shot. :)

 

Hub.

[Force_Feedback]

Hi Force_Feedback,

 

Are you sure of that ? Because the Alamo C is supposed to be guided by datalink updates during the first part of a long shot. :)

 

Hub.

 

Not entirely sure, but maybe Chizh can chime in ;) I read some discussions about the R-27ER being only INS guided until it reaches a predefined intercept point, after which the launcher's radar (Su-27) starts sending guidance commands. The biggest riddle is WHEN it will start sending commands, it could very well be 1 second after leaving the rail to quote someone, or 30 seconds later. The thing is, ED are researching the matter, that's a good thing.

[Pilotasso]

Saying that the R27EA is in service makes as much sense as saying the AIM-7R is in service despite the fact that it never entered service and was an inferior missile to AMRAAM much the same way the EA was rejected in favour to the R-77.

 

Lemme find some pics of the AIM-7R and I want it ingame as well. :D whats the point?

[Alfa]

EDIT:

The best sources I could find so far are:

 

http://home19.inet.tele.dk/airwing/aircraft/a2a.htm

stating that the seeker head is of the 9B-1103M-type

 

Why thanks Golfsierra ;) :D .

 

Anyway, the R-27 seekerheads are:

 

9B-1101K - Semi-active radar seeker for R-27R and R-27RE

 

9B-1032 - Passive radar seeker for R-27P and R-27PE

 

36T - IR seeker for R-27T and R-27TE

 

9B-1103M Active radar seeker for proposed R-27AE

 

The 9B-1103M seeker exists in an upgraded and lighter version(retains the same designation though), just as it comes in both a 200mm and 350mm variant. In other words it is not R-27AE specific, but a universial ARH seeker offered by AGAT for divers applications.

[Alfa]

Hi Force_Feedback,

 

Are you sure of that ? Because the Alamo C is supposed to be guided by datalink updates during the first part of a long shot. :)

 

Hub.

 

The R-27RE has an inertial navigation system(INS), which is fed target data prior to launch. After launch the INS steers the missile towards target on its pre-launch data, which is updated via datalink from the aircraft radar - at terminal stage of engagement the SARH seekerhead takes over and homes directly on radar returns "bounching off" the target.

 

Actually not that different to an ARH missile - except that the SARH seeker(unlike an ARH) doesn't have an onboard emitter and thus relies on the launching(aircraft) radar to "illuminate" the target for it.

[Alfa]

Not entirely sure, but maybe Chizh can chime in ;) I read some discussions about the R-27ER being only INS guided until it reaches a predefined intercept point, after which the launcher's radar (Su-27) starts sending guidance commands.

 

No thats not correct FF.

 

At cruise stage the missile is steered by its INS yes. But the INS needs target coordinates in order to know where to go - these are generated by the aircraft radar and uploaded to the missile INS prior to launch, but since they become "dated" quickly after, the aircraft radar continiues to generate updated ones and "radio" them to the missile INS.

[Force_Feedback]

I was talking about the radar-weapon control, that system does not immediately illuminate the target (only tracks it), only when the missile is in range (for the seeker to 'see' the refelcted radar beam) the launcher's radar will start to illuminate the target. Makes no sense to give away your launch when the missile seeker itself is out of range, that may be how it works on the Su-27. However it's still debated wether the 'delay' is of any significance, it may very well be like 3 seconds after launch (until the missile is clear of the launcher).

 

The point is that the launcher will only start illuminating while the missile is already near the target, and not from T=0.

[GGTharos]

Um...what?

 

You can't even launch the weapon until you're illuminating, IIRC.

[Force_Feedback]

In a certain mode, yes (continious track), but the N-001 has this TWS-like function that will range the supported target every 5 seconds, and if fired in that mode (more than 15km out, otherwise it won't let you), then the missile guidance command will be interrupted and the missile will fly on INS only until the predefined 'active' position. Active as in that the launcher's radar will illuminate the target for missile guidance.

[GGTharos]

Do you have a good source for this FF? If so I would gladly pass it on!

[Mustang]

The radar image shown in that link http://home19.inet.tele.dk/airwing/aircraft/a2a.htm looks remarkably similar to the one used by the R-77 http://www.military.cz/russia/air/weapons/rockets/aam/r-77/r-77.htm

[golfsierra2]

The radar image shown in that link http://home19.inet.tele.dk/airwing/aircraft/a2a.htm looks remarkably similar to the one used by the R-77 http://www.military.cz/russia/air/weapons/rockets/aam/r-77/r-77.htm

 

Thats because both are built by Agat.

Right above that picture on the Czech site you can read

"...pohonné hmoty a kombinovanou naváděcí soustavou 9B-1348 ruské firmy MRI Agat."

 

which refers to the seeker-head 9B-1348, which AGAT builts for the R-77, as you can read right below the seeker-head picture on the Danish site:

"9B-1348E active radar seeker of the R-77(AVV-AE)" :music_whistling:

[Alfa]

I was talking about the radar-weapon control, that system does not immediately illuminate the target (only tracks it), only when the missile is in range (for the seeker to 'see' the refelcted radar beam) the launcher's radar will start to illuminate the target. Makes no sense to give away your launch when the missile seeker itself is out of range, that may be how it works on the Su-27. However it's still debated wether the 'delay' is of any significance, it may very well be like 3 seconds after launch (until the missile is clear of the launcher).

 

The point is that the launcher will only start illuminating while the missile is already near the target, and not from T=0.

 

Ahh ok now I understand what you mean :) .

 

No such delay exists FF.......because you can only launch an R-27R/R-27RE from STT mode ;) .

 

However, if the N001 is in SNP(TWS) mode, the system will automatically determine which of up to 10 tracked contacts will enter missile engagement range first, select it for engagement("bug" it) and only switch to STT for the launch when the system determines that target range falls within missile engagement parameters.......but the radar needs to switch to STT, which means providing CW illumination, before the missile can be launched :)

[Alfa]

Thats because both are built by Agat.

Right above that picture on the Czech site you can read

"...pohonné hmoty a kombinovanou naváděcí soustavou 9B-1348 ruské firmy MRI Agat."

 

which refers to the seeker-head 9B-1348, which AGAT builts for the R-77, as you can read right below the seeker-head picture on the Danish site:

"9B-1348E active radar seeker of the R-77(AVV-AE)" :music_whistling:

 

Yes both designed by AGAT and both ARH seekers.......the 9B-1101K SARH seeker looks somewhat different to those :) .

[hitman]

Ill take a side order of unporked aim-120 deltas.

[Vekkinho]

Well we already have all aspect Sidewinders, short fused but all aspect.

 

I think that it's already kinda AIM-9X!

[Force_Feedback]

Add that to a Cessna, and it's deadly too.