Looking for new controls, but which?

[Zius]

Hi all, I am looking for new controls and would like to get some advice.

I have been into flight sims since before Falcon 3.0 (even played some on the C64, but I doubt you could call it a sim), but didn't fly a lot for quite few years.

 

Until I discovered DCS a few months ago.

At the moment I have the Viggen, the MiG-21 and the MiG-15.

In the future I would like to add the Kürfurst and possibly the Gazelle.

 

At the moment I am using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, which is not bad, but I feel it's lacking the following:

- Not very precise controls, quite light

- Not enough buttons, especially for the Viggen and MiG-21. Note that I don't have TrackIR so I also need buttons for view control.

- Very basic throttle which is also sometimes not working at all

It's also old and not in great shape, so I am looking for something new.

 

I live in the Netherlands and have set myself a limit of EUR 350, which is not a "hard" limit, but you have to stop somewhere :music_whistling:. I am limited to using whatever I buy on a desk, I am not looking into building a pit (unfortunately).

 

Mainly, I am not sure if I should go for the best possible stick and forget about throttle or rudder pedals, or get a compromise instead.

 

I am looking at the following (second choice between brackets):

 

Complete set:

T16000M FCS Flight Pack total EUR 182,70

(Saitek X-56 Hotas + T.Flight Rudder total EUR 300,95)

 

Stick + Throttle (no pedals)

Warthog Hotas total EUR 341,70

(Speedlink Airrow + Warthog throttle total EUR 306,16)

 

Stick only:

VKB Gladiator Pro EUR 237,77

 

I have read that quite a few people are happy with the T16000, but I wonder if the Warthog is not significantly better, especially with regards to build quality, spare parts availability and number of buttons. The VKB Gladiator Pro seems to be the "ultimate" desk stick, but I feel it will be lacking in buttons and also the throttle remains limited. At the moment, I am leaning towards the Warthog and eventually buy the rudders later.

 

Any helpful insights would be greatly appreciated.

 

Also some thoughts about the Thrustmaster Flight Rudder would be appreciated.

[BuzzU]

I've had a bunch of controllers over the years. Just recently I bought the Warthog and love it. Hard to beat for the price.

[sea2sky]

I had similar options to consider when was looking for an upgrade to my old x52, and ended up getting X55 (which is pretty much same thing as X56) + Saitek pedals. The good thing about these pedals - they are far apart from each other unlike T.Flight ones, much more comfortable. For the stick/throttle - it is a great value for sure.

 

As for Warthog - I could not justify spending that much for something built on the plastic mechanics.

 

Gladiator Pro - a piece of art, but like you said the lack of buttons on the grip was a showstopper for me as well.

Edited March 30, 2017 by sea2sky

[BuzzU]

They make Glocks out of what you call plastic. Sometimes it's a better choice than pot metal.

[sea2sky]

They make Glocks out of what you call plastic. Sometimes it's a better choice than pot metal.

 

that is true, today's plastics are so durable, we all know that. But at the same time I keep seeing stories about broken gimbal where people just accidentally would apply a slight twist force to it. Warthog is a great unit but I think it is a bit overpriced and mostly aiming folks who love A-10 :)

[BuzzU]

Who doesn't love the A-10? :D

[sea2sky]

Who doesn't love the A-10? :D

 

Yeah :). I mean love enough to spend extra $$$.

[BuzzU]

I did, but then I bought the P-51. I'm always a sucker for that plane.

 

 

Sorry for going off topic. Just buy the Warthog and don't twist it. ;)

[Zius]

Thanks for the responses so far, especially about the tip regarding the Saitek pedals. It's another EUR 75 but I'll keep it in mind.

 

Regarding the X-55 / X-56, I remember handling it in a store and finding it quite soft, softer than my Logitech. This, combined with reports of throttle problems, makes me consider it not my first choice. Besides, I consider both the X-56 and the Warthog more or less in the same class, and would rather spend a bit more for something better.

 

I also just realised that I should probably have posted this in "Input and Output", perhaps a Mod can help me out here. :doh:

[Necroscope]

Once you got Warthog with extender - you will sunk in sorrow understanding that there nothing in the market which can replace WH if it's broken.

Then you will catch an idea that you need second Warthog just as replacement.

And at this moment price comes in to play.

[BitMaster]

Saitek went out of business recently and got taken over (partly ?) by Logitech.

 

If you buy Saitek gear be informed that there may be no one backing you up in a few months if it fails.

 

I would get the WH Hotas and get good peddals later on. With the planes you fly, rudder is not essential. When you get the Gazelle, think "BRD"...that's the pedals you want, we all want them I guess HAHA.

 

I have some Saitek Combat pedals and they arent bad but you feel the plastic and centre isnt great...it works but I rather would ahve invested double the amount and get some pedals that are more precise and sturdy ( and gorgeous looking too ! ).

[AegisFX]

I'll just add this:

 

I got the saitek x52 pro and the combat rudders for Arma 3 a few years before I got into dcs. I purchased the x55 maybe a few months after their release. The x52 still worked but was a little loose on the stick. The x55 started having problems after 3 days..

 

Try the x55 out if you can handle it. I thought it was uncomfortable myself. Just be ready to return it..

 

After taking a break for maybe 8 months, I'm looking to buy another WH or buy from another vendor here.

[Headwarp]

Your extreme 3d pro is actually a decent stick but as far as modern fighters are concerned it's mostly lacking on the amount of buttons available.

 

 

TM Warthog has that front covered with 4 hat switches on the stick, dual stage trigger, pickle button, master mode button, pinky button and pinky flap. Then the throttle from the A-10C is also pretty much found in the f-15c offering many many more switches and buttons.

 

What I will say is - the gimbal design in the TM Warthog stick is stupid. It seems like they aren't sanded or lubricated very well from the factory... and with all these cam designs popping up on the market it's kind of sad that TM hasn't addressed this issue. I love the feel of the stick.. and if I'm not making tiny adjustments it's fine and the stiffness feels good. But it has stiction using small motions. Some people solve this with an extension.. others have taken the sticks apart and sanded/greased the gimbal themselves. Personally... I think that's a bit much to ask of a customer when they're dropping $400 or more on a USB flight stick.

 

 

That being said.. I do use my warthog in jets and the a-10c and even elite dangerous.. and while I use the throttle for everything I was using an extreme 3d pro for ww1, ww2, and heli simming until I picked up an msffb2.

 

I've been tempted to pick up a VKB gunfighter so I could put the adapter in the warthog stick and enjoy their cam based gimbal, then the thought of spending another $300 to enjoy my WH is just seems stupid. So I'll probably open mine up and see if I can make the factory gimbal work better since I've already invested in the thing.

 

 

Long story short I don't really recommend the warthog unless you just want access to lots and lots of buttons.. and even then the vkb gunfighter with the modern grip might be a better choice, if you can last until they are on the shelves. Then you could get away with something as simple as a CH throttle quadrant if you wanted to.. or maybe find just a warthog throttle or something else on eBay.

 

CH Products are still in business.. still producing basically the same products they have been for years.. which might be a decent alternative to the warthog.. albeit you will be stuck with potentiometers rather than hall sensors. They do have a f-16 style stick though with plenty of hats and buttons. I have no experience with their products but they don't seem to get the kind of hatred that Saitek does and Saitek IS something I've had experience with. Unless Logitech somehow ups the standards for quality control on both hardware and software within Saitek.. just stay the heck away.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Headwarp

[Gladman]

I used the X55 for years, great HOTAS.

Before that I had CH and TM Cougars.

Now I have a Warthog setup and MFG pedals. Its way more precise than the Saitek stuff. I mean way more precise. But its expensive.

With that, if you can afford the Warthog, get it. If you can't, the X55/56 will do you well for years to come. I'd say I'd sell you mine but your on the other side of the world.

[TripRodriguez]

Hmm.. I posted here already but apparently it didn't take (mobile connection) so let me do an abbreviated post. I've been called the "joystick guru" in the SC community. =)

 

Stick/HOTAS:

 

There are no perfect options. Logitech has terrible potentiometers leading to serious inaccuracy, Saitek's stuff has been very unreliable since the Mad Catz thing years ago, I loved my X-52 Pro but it went bad on me less than two years old and this is pretty common.

 

Thrustmaster T16000M is super accurate but doesn't feel nice and doesn't have enough buttons.

 

CH Fighterstick and Throttle is pretty expensive but good quality stuff. A lot of people don't like the feel of their dual barrel gimbal design and though CH feels better than most in your hand it still feels like a toy to some extent.

 

The Thrustmaster Warthog will put a big smile on your face. It weighs a ton, the metal grip feels more realistic than the real thing in your hand, and the buttons also feel light years ahead of every other stick I've had my hand on. If you are willing to spend the money it's well worth it. Most broken Warthog gimbals are the result of using stick extensions without enough caution. "Stiction" is pretty easy to fix. check youtube tutorials, especially mine titled "greasing the 'hog".

 

VKB has a fantastic gimbal but the grip feels like a toy and the WWII grip doesn't have enough buttons for modern aircraft. The ideal solution is a VKB with the Warthog adapter and Warthog grip, but that is expensive as hell and to tell the truth I've got one and haven't bothered building a new mount for it yet because I'm satisfied enough with the Warthog gimbal (after "greasing the hog" that I've continued to procrastinate. In fact I'm a little bit tempted to sell my VKB Gladiator Pro with Warthog grip as I could really use the money, but I fear I might regret it later.

Pedals:

 

MFG Crosswind all the way, unless you want to pay significantly more for the equally good but much sexier Slaw pedals.

 

Saitek pedals are sloppy and wear out pretty quick. Feel is pretty bad. Thrustmaster T-flight pedals I haven't tried, might be good but they are really close together.

 

If you aren't wanting to spend a lot on pedals best bet is often to ebay some used CH pedals as they can often be had cheap. Excellent quality and good accuracy, but again they are close together. Make sure you are buying the USB version and not an old gameport set!

 

Helicopters:

 

If you are a helicopter pilot much more than airplane, check out MicroHelis.de , their heli specific controls are not cheap but they are excellent for a super small company.

 

Any other questions please ask, I like this topic but right now my wife is telling me to hurry up because it's way past bedtime!

 

 

EDIT: PS- My understanding was that Logitech bought out the Saitek sim controllers division, but that Mad Catz/Saitek is still in business just no longer in that market segment. Now that Logitech and Saitek's sim division are the same entity we don't know whether to expect the best Saitek and Logitech traits to be merged or the worst of them. We could wind up with very inaccurate controllers that are still unreliable instead of Saitek's gaining Logitech reliability. So far it seems the current models are just continuing production so no reason to think anything has changed yet.

Edited April 16, 2017 by TripRodriguez