F15-C Help with HOJ and Maddog.

[rvotri]

I read once that when you got HOJ on hud (Home on Jam) you can use the enemy emission to make my missile home on him.

 

How exactly it works? And why i'd use this?

Does this technic works on Russian planes too?

If some one could provide a step by step (Best radar mode, range, missile that works with it etc...)

 

I'm my comprehension: To get HOJ you should use your radar, if you're using radar, why would you bother in use enemy source as homing?

 

 

Also, someone once said here that is possible to use AIMs as Maddog (or Pitbulls) but never worked to me, no matter how close enemy is, launching without lock missile doesn't search and engage by itself.

So again, if someone could provide a short step by step i'd appreciate.

 

Thanks.

[p1t1o]

Im not too familiar with the DCS F-15 but here are some true things:

 

"Listening" for a jamming signal requires no radar emissions, it is "passive", meaning your aircraft will not show up on enemy radar warning sensors.

 

If someone is successfully jamming your radar, impeding your ability to get a "lock", then you can use the HoJ capability to fire off a shot anyway, though it will lack range information so will fly a less efficient profile.

 

I think that Aim-9's fired without a lock must be a very last resort (like if you have damaged systems) tactic, the missile will not be able to do much in the way of "searching" for a target, the seeker is not designed for this, there must be something pretty much straight ahead.

[DarkFire]

Home-on-jam works passively, doesn't require any emissions from your radar. Missiles can be launched in HOJ mode by both the F-15C and the Su-27 on the Russian side (might apply to other Russian fighters such as the MiG-29, but I don't fly it so can't be sure).

 

The problem is that acquiring a target in HOJ mode gives you no range information, so you have no idea if your missile will have enough energy to reach the target.

 

When fighting ECM-emitting aircraft you're much better off using your radar, in both the F-15C and the Su-27. Why? Your radar will achieve burn-through against an ECM emitter long before you reach an acceptable launch range for your missiles.

 

ECM has many uses in DCS, but paradoxically preventing enemy aircraft from launching against you is not one of them.

[IASGATG]

It should be noted however that to lock onto an ECM target in DCS does require your radar. So the jamming bandit will be locked and will know you are shooting at him. Also jamming only works up to about 20nmi, so any jamming targets you cannot resolve with your radar are beyond 20nmi, and so are beyond the range of your weapons (The AIM-120C is the longest range weapon in the game and as an effective Rtr of about 7nmi).

 

 

As for mad-dogging a missile (Not to be confused with a missile going pitbull) works quite well, but you have to point the missile at the target. The dashed circle on the HUD is a good indicator of the missile's seeker gimbal limit. The bandit also needs to be within about 7nmi for the missile to be able to see the target. It isn't an exact science.

[Sryan]

I read once that when you got HOJ on hud (Home on Jam) you can use the enemy emission to make my missile home on him.

 

How exactly it works? And why i'd use this?

Does this technic works on Russian planes too?

If some one could provide a step by step (Best radar mode, range, missile that works with it etc...)

 

I'm my comprehension: To get HOJ you should use your radar, if you're using radar, why would you bother in use enemy source as homing?

 

 

Also, someone once said here that is possible to use AIMs as Maddog (or Pitbulls) but never worked to me, no matter how close enemy is, launching without lock missile doesn't search and engage by itself.

So again, if someone could provide a short step by step i'd appreciate.

 

Thanks.

 

Neither HOJ nor a mad dog launch is something I'd actively pursue if I were you. These modes provide options if there aren't any other, but a more typical approach usually has a higher chance of succes.

 

for HOJ:

 

Have the radar on, and allow yourself to be jammed. Simply designate the jammer with the TDC and press the lock button. You should now be in HOJ mode. The enemy won't notice when you choose to launch, but the missile is only capable of pure-pursuit in this mode.

 

For a mad dog launch.

 

Be in BVR mode without having a target locked, the HUD should read VISUAL. Use the missile as an AIR instead of an AIM. Lead the target yourself, so the target will fly through the large reticle on your HUD a few seconds after it was fired. Since the area the missile can detect targets in is conical, I usually find it works best if there is some distance between you and the target, atleast a mile or so.

 

Only the AIM-120 AMRAAM is capable of a mad dog launch, both the AIM-120 and the AIM-7 sparrow can do HOJ. I'm unaware of the AIM-9 having any mad dog capabilities.

[Svend_Dellepude]

AIM-9 will track the first heat source it sees if fired without a lock.

[The Black Swan]

I read once that when you got HOJ on hud (Home on Jam) you can use the enemy emission to make my missile home on him.

 

How exactly it works? And why i'd use this?

Does this technic works on Russian planes too?

If some one could provide a step by step (Best radar mode, range, missile that works with it etc...)

 

I'm my comprehension: To get HOJ you should use your radar, if you're using radar, why would you bother in use enemy source as homing?

 

 

Also, someone once said here that is possible to use AIMs as Maddog (or Pitbulls) but never worked to me, no matter how close enemy is, launching without lock missile doesn't search and engage by itself.

So again, if someone could provide a short step by step i'd appreciate.

 

Thanks.

 

HOJ is rarely used, but there is a particular situation it could be useful for.

 

When your missile has good range (when you are high and fast), then a target coming right at you will enter rpi at a pretty long range and a HOJ shot shouldn't alert the enemy so there should be a higher chance of the enemy unknowingly flying right into the missile.

 

There is obviously the problem of how to know if the enemy is in range and coming toward you...

 

The only way to know this is by having kept track of the enemy prior to when he started jamming, kept track of friendly AWACS reports, or kept track of other aircrafts recent call outs.

(Or when we get the hornet, possibly slaveing the ATFLIR to the source of jamming if it can see that far)

[Frostie]

HOJ shots work, some human players tend to leave their jammers on even after burn through. High flying bandits with 'jammers on' are great targets for HOJ, with SARH once burn through is achieved the missile will behave normally at the intercept, with ARH when the missile goes active it behaves normally, in both situations the jamming target won't get a launch warning until very late. I've turned plenty of jamming targets into balls of smoke using HOJ.

The beauty of HOJ is that the missile self guides without your radar locking the target, i'll let you decide how to best utilise this.;)

[SinusoidDelta]

HOJ is rarely used, but there is a particular situation it could be useful for.

 

When your missile has good range (when you are high and fast), then a target coming right at you will enter rpi at a pretty long range and a HOJ shot shouldn't alert the enemy so there should be a higher chance of the enemy unknowingly flying right into the missile.

 

There is obviously the problem of how to know if the enemy is in range and coming toward you...

 

The only way to know this is by having kept track of the enemy prior to when he started jamming, kept track of friendly AWACS reports, or kept track of other aircrafts recent call outs.

(Or when we get the hornet, possibly slaveing the ATFLIR to the source of jamming if it can see that far)

 

You can guesstimate if the target is hot/cold as the intensity of the strobe goes up as you get close. If they are flanking you'll sometimes see what looks like multiple HOJ tracks if you aren't locking the strobe.

 

I've tried a lot of HOJ slammer launches at high alt/speed and have yet to score a kill.

[winchesterdelta1]

HOJ shots work, some human players tend to leave their jammers on even after burn through. High flying bandits with 'jammers on' are great targets for HOJ, with SARH once burn through is achieved the missile will behave normally at the intercept, with ARH when the missile goes active it behaves normally, in both situations the jamming target won't get a launch warning until very late. I've turned plenty of jamming targets into balls of smoke using HOJ.

The beauty of HOJ is that the missile self guides without your radar locking the target, i'll let you decide how to best utilise this.;)

 

Hmmmm... Good to now. Does this really really work this way?

[rvotri]

Woooooowwwww Thank you all for replyes!

 

Yea, i know HOJ and Maddogs aren't a resource to rely on, but, i want to be ready for every situation, and train for it.

 

HOJ:

So... Yes, as i thougth, i should guestimate the target range for launch,

since I use to play without any outside camera or F10 helpers and sometimes without any friendlyes plane around.

No pain, no gain, eh?

 

Well, i still not sure about:

 

Simply designate the jammer with the TDC and press the lock button

 

So if i'm designating a target, isn't am i firing my radar on it?

Or in HOJ mode radar just doesn't emits? If not it will be more stealthly, isn't?

 

MADDOGS

Tends to be some way, stealth too, because i didn't emit any directed radar, isn't?

 

And... I forget to post on original question:

 

TWS = Does the enemy knows when i'm searching and/or locking him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I already have been shoot by players who launched 120s that triggered my TEWS only when they were very close to me, i personally don't know how to promote those shots..

Is it relationed with HOJ, Maddog or TWS?

[pr1malr8ge]

Well, i still not sure about:

 

 

 

So if i'm designating a target, isn't am i firing my radar on it?

Or in HOJ mode radar just doesn't emits? If not it will be more stealthly, isn't?

You can only launch a missile in HOJ mode with radar on. To enter HOJ mode you will use the VSD[radar screen] and lock the strobe[the vertical set of dashes] this will set the missile to HOJ and then you can launch. Keep in mind you cannot not IFF a friendly that is Strobing so you could end up killing a friendly.

 

 

MADDOGS

Tends to be some way, stealth too, because i didn't emit any directed radar, isn't?

 

And... I forget to post on original question:

 

TWS = Does the enemy knows when i'm searching and/or locking him?

 

I already have been shoot by players who launched 120s that triggered my TEWS only when they were very close to me, i personally don't know how to promote those shots..

Is it relationed with HOJ, Maddog or TWS?

Maddogs are not stealthy once launched. As soon as you command launch the radar on the missile is active alerting anyone in front of it.

How ever... It can be stealth employed by sneaking up to a bandit radar off and launching..

 

Tws= Track while scan. An enemy can see you are emitting radar in his direction but does not know if you have him locked or have fired on him[if firing a aim120]

 

as far as you being shot down.. Those shots were most likely launched in TWS mode. Again TWS is a software lock. Thus means that radar signal does not change and will not alert tews that you're being locked or fired upon. Only time you will know that you've been fired upon is when the aim120 goes active when it is 8nm away from its intended intercept point.

 

Now, as far as HOJ shots & alerts are concerned I'm not sure but those should never alert the target aircraft because the missile should never be emitting any radiation it is a pure passive mode. How ever in DCS it is my understanding that the aim120 will go active. I'm also curios with the aim7 if you break HOJ lock will the missile go dumb? That is for someone else to answer as I don't have a clue

[OnlyforDCS]

I'm also curios with the aim7 if you break HOJ lock will the missile go dumb? That is for someone else to answer as I don't have a clue

 

Not sure what you are asking. If the bandit turns off his jammer, the missile will lose lock. However if you've locked and launched on a HOJ signal, the missile will guide without your radar. It basically turns an AIM7 (or equivalent SARH) into a fire and forget missile, as long as the bandit doesn't turn off his jammer of course.

[Frostie]

Keep in mind without the radar lock a HOJ SARH missile will fly pure pursuit and have an extremely poor chance of being a threat, very very low Pk.

[rvotri]

It's great to finally understand things, i read the manual and wasn't clear, because speciffic doubts like those up there. I use to Fly A10C and bombers and i do a Good job there, once i gived up from fighters because i was never able to kill someone.

After some hours of training using resources from here, and from some other posts (sneaking / Correct Employment of CMS) and others like this BVR Tatics (In Portuguese), yesterday, in all these years playing DCS i got my fisrt positive Kill/death ratio, (4/1) to be exact XD. Man!! I guess i never landed a plane after enter a Air-To-Air conflict (most cases been killed, or just out of juice).

Thank you all a lot! And when you see a player called "Robson" or "Votri" out there on servers, say for yourself "I trained that guy"...

 

A Nice day!

Edited April 13, 2017 by rvotri
misstyped

[rvotri]

Also, i'd like to add, when searching trough TWS some players aren't aware i'm there. I'm not sure, but TWS doesn't ring enemy RWR everytime, don't know what are the parameters for it, but seems to be a "Silent radar", maybe in aspect, altitude.. I'll do some tests with friends online and try to to discover the most silent approach using TWS.

[Sryan]

Also, i'd like to add, when searching trough TWS some players aren't aware i'm there. I'm not sure, but TWS doesn't ring enemy RWR everytime, don't know what are the parameters for it, but seems to be a "Silent radar", maybe in aspect, altitude.. I'll do some tests with friends online and try to to discover the most silent approach using TWS.

 

TWS isn't silent or anything. You are still emitting. If the enemy could detect your RWS emissions, they can detect your TWS emissions as well. Most aircraft have blind spots in their RWR coverage. The area in wich par example the MiG-21 cannot detect emissions is pretty large. For the F-15 and Su-27, the blind spots are in a 45 degree cone above and below the aircraft. This means that when they bank it's very possible they are showing a blind spot to you.

[pr1malr8ge]

Not sure what you are asking. If the bandit turns off his jammer, the missile will lose lock. However if you've locked and launched on a HOJ signal, the missile will guide without your radar. It basically turns an AIM7 (or equivalent SARH) into a fire and forget missile, as long as the bandit doesn't turn off his jammer of course.

 

I personaly have never been hit by an aim7 or aim120 for that matter that has been silent on my rwr.

 

I know that that an missile launched HOJ should be Fire N Forget but we are talking about DCS here. Since the Aim120 goes active when it should not.

 

From what I've been read that if someone launches in HOJ you will get an alert on the rwr either a hard spike I'm amusing if launching an Aim7 immediately or the aim120 when it goes active. While I'm a bit proactive with my jammer if I get a prolonged lock while jamming I will turn it off then turn it back for fear of the HOJ shot. How ever I'm curious if the Aim7 requires a constant HOJ lock for it to continue tracking. since as stated above it is DCS we are talking about.

[Frostie]

Scored a HOJ kill in blueflag last night with R-27R, the bandit left his jammer on after burnthrough I locked and launched HOJ at 12km just to defend my position then immediately switched to another target. The missile flew by it self with no lock from my aircraft straight into the bandit, all I can imagine is that he carried on straight into it with no defensive attempt.

[captain_dalan]

 

 

MADDOGS

Tends to be some way, stealth too, because i didn't emit any directed radar, isn't?

 

 

 

They can be if you launch with the radar off. What you need to do is enter uncaged mode (F6 on my keyboard), then switch from AIM-9 to AIM-120. Point your nose at where you think the bandits are (the targeting circle on your HUD) and fire away. The missile will be active from the get go, and lock on the first thing it sees. People say it will lock on the largest return it gets from its on board radar. So you have no way to know what it will hit or of it does at all. It may go after the closest thing, the plane with largest RCS..... It's a bit of a gamble, but it's useful when you don't have time to wait for a lock (but you have some idea where they are) or when you sneak on the enemy. Just make sure there aren't any friendlies around. :thumbup:

[Weltensegler]

Don't bother with HOJ. Any effective jammer range is way outside of DCS missile's effective range. Nothing that gets fired reasonable at the time you aren't burned through yet will hit its target.

[Svend_Dellepude]

They can be if you launch with the radar off. What you need to do is enter uncaged mode (F6 on my keyboard), then switch from AIM-9 to AIM-120. Point your nose at where you think the bandits are (the targeting circle on your HUD) and fire away. The missile will be active from the get go, and lock on the first thing it sees. People say it will lock on the largest return it gets from its on board radar. So you have no way to know what it will hit or of it does at all. It may go after the closest thing, the plane with largest RCS..... It's a bit of a gamble, but it's useful when you don't have time to wait for a lock (but you have some idea where they are) or when you sneak on the enemy. Just make sure there aren't any friendlies around. :thumbup:

 

The AIM-120 will go active on launch if you don't have anything locked or bugged, regardles of mode.

That's what the 'visual' in the lower right side of the HUD indicates.

[blkspade]

It should be noted that effective range of the 120 scales up with altitude, launch speed, and closure rate. At 40K' above mach 1 vs co altitude target, an 18-22nm is a very realistic kill. Diving on a lower (but still high) target can still get kills at 15nm. All of which are still after burn though however.

[IASGATG]

It should be noted that effective range of the 120 scales up with altitude, launch speed, and closure rate. At 40K' above mach 1 vs co altitude target, an 18-22nm is a very realistic kill. Diving on a lower (but still high) target can still get kills at 15nm. All of which are still after burn though however.

 

Nah, rmax of still about 14nmi against a defending target.

[captain_dalan]

The AIM-120 will go active on launch if you don't have anything locked or bugged, regardles of mode.

That's what the 'visual' in the lower right side of the HUD indicates.

Never tried it in "2" as when flying the F-15 i usually have my radar on, and when on it's usually in TWS, so i launch on bugged targets (if a launch at all). But doing a "pop up" launch against a sudden high bandit while getting out of a low level dogfight is a situation i have been in.