Reflected Posted May 12, 2017 Author Posted May 12, 2017 I tried again. I was under the radar that was on the top of a hill. I put the missile on my 3, did split S-es ,high G maneuvers, pumping chaff like crazy. NOTHING happened. The missile hit me as if I was flying straight. Facebook Instagram YouTube Discord
Eddie Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Leading/Trailing edge is operator selectable usually. In any case, I don't see why 'leading edge tracking' would make beaming ineffective. Mentioning the chaff-bundle separating rapidly is fair, but we've seen much more modern radars track chaff instead of target at quite short (gunsgunsguns :) ) ranges on this very forum. If the chaff blooms fast enough, the centroid will shift - and in my understanding, leading edge tracking doesn't have too much much to do with the power centroid ... since the chaff's overwhelming reflection will arrive at the same time as target skin reflection. I would say beaming+CM is one of the most effective countermeasures by itself, though I also agree that adding maneuver to the mix should make it even more effective. I guess it depends on what ECM we're talking about really. If we're comparing to 60s/70s then I think the Low Blow will do pretty well, against modern ECM I think the result will be different. Valid point on chaff bloom rate as well, older chaff didn't have the bloom rate and sophistication of what's around now. I tried again. I was under the radar that was on the top of a hill. I put the missile on my 3, did split S-es ,high G maneuvers, pumping chaff like crazy. NOTHING happened. The missile hit me as if I was flying straight. Yeah, that's certainly not right in my opinion. If you're employing indirect terrain masking the ground clutter alone should give the Low Blow serious issues picking you out, even with its clutter rejection.
GGTharos Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Me, I'm just sticking to chaff. RPGO/RGPI and other techniques would be neat of course, but you'd need an entire EM/EW simulation to do more than superficial modelling of this stuff :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Haukka81 Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Maybe we get better (little bit) EW simulation in 2.5 ?? :) Sent when im drunk with my iphone near me :) Oculus CV1, Odyssey, Pimax 5k+ (i5 8400, 24gb ddr4 3000mhz, 1080Ti OC ) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
red_coreSix Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 For anyone interested, here is some footage of the Pechora-2A, an upgrade of the S-125M1. Includes impact of RGPO and noise jamming on the low blow.
Beamscanner Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 You keep mentioning operators, out of curiosity, doesn't the SA-3 typically employ an auto-tracker, AGC and doesn't require much input post-launch? Or are you talking about a manual launch, via CLOS? The SA-3 does use these features. But the target can be tracked manually as needed if countermeasures are noticed. If the radar is capable of leading edge tracking it could easily switch to trailing edge tracking in such a case, couldn't it? I imagine that makes it quite vulnerable to ECM though... I'm sure they could, and I'm also sure they could manually 'fix' the track. This is why I think chaff+split-S+jamming is the best way to take on the SA-3. The chaff and jamming will help hide your true return in the noise, and the split S instead of the beam keeps you on the same azimuth as the chaff you've released. Again at short ranges chaff is less likely to be effective if your beaming. In any case, I don't see why 'leading edge tracking' would make beaming ineffective. It wouldn't.. Beaming makes chaff less effective while at short range. Mentioning the chaff-bundle separating rapidly is fair, but we've seen much more modern radars track chaff instead of target at quite short (gunsgunsguns :) ) ranges on this very forum. Haven't seen the thread or source, but I'm sure chaff illumination (jamming signal reflecting off the chaff) was at play. If the chaff blooms fast enough, the centroid will shift - and in my understanding, leading edge tracking doesn't have too much much to do with the power centroid ... since the chaff's overwhelming reflection will arrive at the same time as target skin reflection. Right, if you are beaming the leading edge tracker may still follow you. But because its automated, it may track the larger return (the chaff), who knows. Either way, I'd much rather hide below or behind the chaff than off axis from it. Without jamming, the radar operator will pick you out once you leave the res cell the chaff is in.
GGTharos Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Haven't seen the thread or source, but I'm sure chaff illumination (jamming signal reflecting off the chaff) was at play. I doubt that was the case, but I don't really know ... it was one F-18C gun-tracking another F-18C. Right, if you are beaming the leading edge tracker may still follow you. But because its automated, it may track the larger return (the chaff), who knows. Either way, I'd much rather hide below or behind the chaff than off axis from it. Fair enough, but you might not have that choice. Driving through the beam while dispensing chaff is or was a technique that should be useful. Other ways of dealing with this might be even better, but I wouldn't know. Without jamming, the radar operator will pick you out once you leave the res cell the chaff is in.Did his missile miss by then? Do I have more chaff trailing me? :) The missile flight time is maybe 15-20 sec. I already have a fleeting opportunity to defend - what are his opportunities to notice the tracker coming off the target and correcting for it in time if my defense is working? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
red_coreSix Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Video in question: Around the 0:20 mark. Guy is beaming left and deploying chaff at about 2nm range. Still, the chaff manages to break/deny the radar lock.
Reflected Posted May 13, 2017 Author Posted May 13, 2017 I did another test: I only turned the chaff on, and I was pumping it like crazy. For the first time I managed to evade an SA-3 without making it fly into the ground. But the difference between the SA-3 and the MIG-21's R3R is night and day, still. Facebook Instagram YouTube Discord
MBot Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 Wouldn't it be great if chaff/ECM could actually break radar locks in DCS?
Eddie Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 Wouldn't it be great if chaff/ECM could actually break radar locks in DCS? It really would. Or even deny them in the first place...
Beamscanner Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 Video in question: Around the 0:20 mark. Guy is beaming left and deploying chaff at about 2nm range. Still, the chaff manages to break/deny the radar lock. Ahh.. Couple of things I saw, but granted we are so far removed from this that it could be well beyond us. I am sure you guys are aware of some of this. -He didnt' break lock as he had no lock in the first place. -Its a stretch to say he denied lock, when "easty" couldn't get a lock before or after. (not until much closer) -The close-in dogfight modes with fighter radars use a medium to low PRF in order to perform 'all aspect' detection and tracking. These waveforms are more ambiguous to Doppler, and are thus more susceptible to clutter in the main beam. -These radars are also highly automated and utilize clean screens. The Low Blow allows the operator to look through the clutter and manually pick out targets. Granted, its not easy or reliable, and so its performance is operator dependent. -And finally, a short lived effects of the chaff due to walshys turn only proves my point that the chaff used in the beam is not very effective. As walshy turned left, the chaff 'moved' right and was no longer a factor. Buts that my guess, I might be way off, but theres certainly no point to debate what we will never know. Maybe chaff with a beam is more effective than i expect or give it credit for. Certainly chaff works in game, but we all know that CMs are not simulated properly.
Recommended Posts