Large Bomber formations

[Pikey]

This setting in the ME is rather confusing. I've tinkered but can't get anything satisfactory to work. Is there a description of how it should be used anywhere?

[Nirvi]

I can upload a mission with an 18 bomber formation as example this evening.

[Captain Orso]

Look here: Large Bomber Formations.

 

If you set the initial formation for all bomber groups to Open, relatively few collisions occur... but really it should be none :(

[Popchar]

I can upload a mission with an 18 bomber formation as example this evening.

 

Yes please :-)

[Pikey]

Yeah please Nirvi, but also I'm interested in the following:

1) What do "Distance, Elevation and Interval" refer to?

2) If you set these on a "SUB-GROUP", what changes can they make?

3) What parts of the formation type are "Inherited" from the lead group? For example, if you set a wing to have different settings in group type from the Leader, can you mess it up?

4) Do sub groups inherit the bombing task, how can you get them to drop bombs? I've found you can set the sub groups to Large formation and they then stick to the escort's settings, but didn't drop bombs, even when it was added.

5) And other stuff ;)

[Nirvi]

Here we go:

 

With this settings, the whole group will drop the bombs at the same time.

Bomberformation.miz

[[DBS]TH0R]

Referencing my earlier thread.

 

Here we go:

 

With this settings, the whole group will drop the bombs at the same time.

 

Thank you for this. No hard feelings, but what you set up there is a gaggle, not a formation. :pilotfly: :D

 

This is my attempt at two 18 plane formations in DCS, I took the liberty and upgraded your mission with two of mine:

 

#1 ... 3x6plane elements or the most common and easiest to fly

#2 ... 6x3plane elements i.e. Javelin Down

 

A couple of observations:

 

- the far right element (second 3 plane group in high squadron) when set to Javelin Down overlaps with first group in the said high squadron and is the only one that will collide within the formation, solution was to set that 3 plane group to Combat Box

- bomb releases are set to highest intervalometer setting possible, or it seems so or it could be target settings related ... I hope for a tighter grouping or even salvo options

- animation of bombs dropping is all backwards, first the bombs from the top of the bomb bay fall through the other bombs in the bomb bay - please fix :D

 

I was not able to set up a proper 18 plane Combat Box formation, for that to be available, "low right" and "high left" options inside Javelin Down must be added.

 

Though I was messing about with formations for only an hour or so. No more time today.

 

 

Color me impressed ED. Great work and I do hope this isn't on your back burner to improve upon. :thumbup:

Bomberformation18plane3element.miz

BomberformationJavelinDown.miz

[Pikey]

Hmm, that sticks together well, so is the best way to do individual groups, not groups of three, since i got DCS groups of three set in an element and used the big formation to glue those to the lead. You did each plane as a group of one and hand tied the groups together, which is a lot of work! Well, three times the work, but not sure if my three groups are good enough to do large formations. I can get 12 quite nicely.

Referencing my earlier thread.

 

 

 

Thank you for this. No hard feelings, but what you set up there is a gaggle, not a formation. :pilotfly: :D

 

This is my attempt at two 18 plane formations in DCS, I took the liberty and upgraded your mission with two of mine:

 

#1 ... 3x6plane elements or the most common and easiest to fly

#2 ... 6x3plane elements i.e. Javelin Down

 

A couple of observations:

 

- the far right element (second 3 plane group in high squadron) when set to Javelin Down overlaps with first group in the said high squadron and is the only one that will collide within the formation, solution was to set that 3 plane group to Combat Box

- bomb releases are set to highest intervalometer setting possible, or it seems so or it could be target settings related ... I hope for a tighter grouping or even salvo options

- animation of bombs dropping is all backwards, first the bombs from the top of the bomb bay fall through the other bombs in the bomb bay - please fix :D

 

I was not able to set up a proper 18 plane Combat Box formation, for that to be available, "low right" and "high left" options inside Javelin Down must be added.

 

Though I was messing about with formations for only an hour or so. No more time today.

 

 

Color me impressed ED. Great work and I do hope this isn't on your back burner to improve upon. :thumbup:

[Stonehouse]

Interesting thing, took T}-{or's 18plane3element mission, moved the raid back to around Cherbourg and did nothing else than add 3 planes to each group for a total of 72 aircraft. Ran the mission and very unexpectedly I got 4 combat box formations rather than what I thought I would get. It took a little while for the formations to close right up but in the end you got a very nice 72 plane raid and a lot of bombs. By the way don't use time advance at too high a rate (ie more than x2 or x3) as the alpha doesn't cope very well (or didn't on my machine anyway) and you get problems.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Hmm, that sticks together well, so is the best way to do individual groups, not groups of three, since i got DCS groups of three set in an element and used the big formation to glue those to the lead. You did each plane as a group of one and hand tied the groups together, which is a lot of work! Well, three times the work, but not sure if my three groups are good enough to do large formations. I can get 12 quite nicely.

I just rearranged the flights Nirvi did. Removed the 4th plane from each element and set them up following each other per formation flying rules.

 

I did try to rename the groups later on, but it seems to me that it doesn't make a difference. Someone correct me on that if I'm wrong. I've only messed about with this for an hour.

 

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[Pikey]

OK, did you try using the "WW2 Bomber Element" formation then groups of three aircraft and join each 3 group to another using the bomber formation? Would seem that this would be simpler, but i'm not sure of the restrictions as it ignores the individual plane settings in favour of the position in the box/javelin. Plus, wing, group and squad positions - I don't understand these when refering by an element of three.

I just rearranged the flights Nirvi did. Removed the 4th plane from each element and set them up following each other per formation flying rules.

 

I did try to rename the groups later on, but it seems to me that it doesn't make a difference. Someone correct me on that if I'm wrong. I've only messed about with this for an hour.

 

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[Mr_sukebe]

Just flown a mission with 4*4, awesome looking. My thanks.

Going to try it with Heinkels (mod aircraft), now.

[Pikey]

Confirmed

- the far right element (second 3 plane group in high squadron) when set to Javelin Down overlaps with first group in the said high squadron and is the only one that will collide within the formation, solution was to set that 3 plane group to Combat Box

Also....due to aforementioned thing and bomb fuzes arming immediately, it disintegrated my right side and 6 planes when dropping in formation. Very pretty though!

Edited May 30, 2017 by Pikey
subsequent effect

[[DBS]TH0R]

OK, did you try using the "WW2 Bomber Element" formation then groups of three aircraft and join each 3 group to another using the bomber formation? Would seem that this would be simpler, but i'm not sure of the restrictions as it ignores the individual plane settings in favour of the position in the box/javelin. Plus, wing, group and squad positions - I don't understand these when refering by an element of three.

 

That is exactly how I did it, by using "WW2 Big Formation" under advanced options. Set up flights of 3, then set them to follow the lead of another 3 plane element - up to the whole squadron lead.

 

 

Confirmed

 

Also....due to aforementioned thing and bomb fuzes arming immediately, it disintegrated my right side and 6 planes when dropping in formation. Very pretty though!

 

Just set that particular element to Combat Box under Formation Type and it will do its thing properly (i.e. not overlap).

 

As far as the Wing, Group and Box options - be sure to watch the video from the thread I opened a while back:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=184864

 

- might as well continue the discussion there, if you wish to attempt at building some of those formations :)

[352ndDeacon]

Most of us will need step by step instructions to duplicate what you did T{}OR to make either bomber group. While we may be experienced in making missions,I for one, have no idea how you made that bomber formation. Please help.

Thanks in advance.

[[DBS]TH0R]

Can do that. But not sure if I'll get around to it today. Super swamped with work.

 

In the mean time, there are two mission files I've posted in this thread. Feel free to use them.

 

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[Captain Orso]

Confirmed

 

Also....due to aforementioned thing and bomb fuzes arming immediately, it disintegrated my right side and 6 planes when dropping in formation. Very pretty though!

 

I was going to try to write this up in text, but trying to explain it in detail is such a PITA, and a picture is blah-blah-blah...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[DBS]TH0R]

I couldn't get them to fly level as in not staggered as in not right higher and left lower than element lead. Can you also share wing position settings inside of the 3 plane element please?

 

I'm dying to get my hands on this myself, but work and social life intervened.

[Pikey]

I managed this, but getting them to take off and form up is another thing entirely. Varied from 2 crashing to all but three surviving, due to the altitude at the forming up point not being observed. Simple way is set the first leader, then the left low and right low following him, then the low sqn and high sqn following him. Due to the bug above, the High Sqn occupies right high also, so you can workaround by doing him as right high from the "right high" group instead of the lead. Setting to combat box didnt work for me.

 

Mind set all the formations as ww2 bomber formation high deperation and that's all there is. Once you know what right high and left low is, you can chain them.

 

Now to get DCS to stop exploding when they carpet bomb during my flak script...

[Captain Orso]

Probably should have done this at the start. Mission now attached.

 

Thor, if you mean, what the group formation is, it's "ww2 Bomber Element", but you can see that in the mission.

 

I haven't tried anything with the "ww2 Bomber Element Height Separation" group formation.

 

Look at the illustrations. The trick is that the Lead Group Leader is the central anchor. From there going left and right, each group anchors on the group immediately neighboring toward the center of the whole formation. Pay attention to the targeting lines for the lead AC of each group.

Normandy Bomber Test 07 Javalin 25k.miz

[[DBS]TH0R]

Thanks. I know that the group lead being central anchor. That is how I fly my formations and how I set up the one in DCS. :)

 

I was wondering about how you set individual small groups of 3 planes, the other 2 planes not being lead also known as wing positions. I couldn't get them to fly level with the 3 plane group lead.

 

As said earlier, I've only had an hour or so to mess about with this, and all of it was adjusting Nirvi's original formation setup.

 

Once I find the time to build one myself from scratch I will know more. Thanks for the tips and the mission. Downloading now.

 

EDIT: 2 seconds later... I found the culprit / what I was looking for:

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by T}{OR

[Justificus]

Being a complete idiot with the ME I ask... is it possible to create a template of a large bomber formation for us dolts to plug into missions? Is this even possible?

[Basco1]

@ Thor.......Just wanted to say a big thanks for all your hard work on this mate,I really appreciate the help you've given us all,my B-17 formations are looking great,thanks to you.

[[DBS]TH0R]

@ Thor.......Just wanted to say a big thanks for all your hard work on this mate,I really appreciate the help you've given us all,my B-17 formations are looking great,thanks to you.

 

You're welcome! Thought I've only just begun. When work load eases in the upcoming days, I hope to make a video tutorial on how to build proper WWII formations.

 

In the mean time, here are two basic 3x3 plane formations to get you started. Captain Orso's mission was of great help. My first attempts look amateurish in comparison. :)

Formation01_basic3x3_level.miz

Formation01_basic3x3_hightseparation.miz

[Basco1]

Excellent,look forward to trying these out...........your spoiling us Thor,great work buddy.