Sidewinder cueing?

[Sealpup]

Is the AV-8B NA capable of cueing Sidewinders off the DMT? Or are they just straight bore-sight shots like every other aircraft without a radar?

 

I was thinking of some situations where it would be interesting if that were the case, mostly relating to low-flying aircraft or using Sidewinders as impromptu AGM's against hot ground targets, and just wanted to know if it were possible.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Hyena

[asla36]

I don't know if it would be possible on the harrier, but I have heard stories about the MiG-21's IR missiles being capable of use as makeshift AGMs (sorta like the K-5). Though with the sensitivity of those things, I would imagine that it would only really be possible in a Siberian winter.

 

Does the AV-8B NA have a HMCS? Or maybe the radar variant?

[Sealpup]

Yeah, the tests I heard of way back when sounded like the earlier Sidewinders had similar performance. Even the newest AIM-9X, which is more or less an IR-Imaging missile is a mixed bag when they tried it.

 

But I'd figure that ability would be most useful for low-flying aircraft, like helos, with using Sidewinders in ways the manufacturer does not recommend being secondary.

[Zeus67]

Well, the DMT can be used in A-A mode to help look for and identify targets at ranges above common visual range.

 

I'm trying to ascertain if it could be used to lock onto AA targets and aid in the interception that way by giving a steering command.

 

As for using a sidewinder for AG, well I think that is not possible in DCS and while it may be possible in RL, I think that the results could be disappointing.

 

The problem is the guidance software. An AA missile does not look for a direct hit but to get real close the its target so that when the warhead detonates, the shrapnel will devastate their unarmored victim. Aircraft have difficulties flying when full of holes. Ground/sea vehicles are mores sturdier. They could survive because the holes are not enough to kill it, and there may not even be any hole if the target is armored. So AG missiles go for full contact impact before detonation.

[jojo]

Well, I dare to disagree here Larry.

 

AA missiles do aim for direct hit. But the proximity fuze is there in case they "miss". The warhead can have both contact and proximity fuze.

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by jojo

[Zeus67]

Well, I dare to disagree here Larry.

 

AA missiles do aim for direct hit. But the proximity fuze is there in case they "miss". The warhead can have both contact and proximity fuze.

 

 

IIRC the lethality of the AIM-7 was increased when the guidance package was changed from "direct hit" to "get really close".

 

The original AIM-7s were trying to get a hit on the fuselage and their lethality was poor. The guidance was changed from direct hit to get above the fuselage, which combined with the proximity fuse improved the odds of killing a target.

 

It was the same with the original sidewinders, to the point that during oen of the many Indian/Pakistan engagements an unexploded Sidewinder B was lodged in the hull of an Indian Mig. From there the soviets developed their AA-2 Atoll.

 

I'm speaking from memory but I think that the goal moved from hitting the fuselage to getting real close and let the shrapnel do its job.

[GGTharos]

Your memory serves you poorly :). It was Vietnam or Korea regarding the 9b, I forget which.

 

Sparrow lethality was increased by incorporating a lot of improvements to guidance, target detection etc, not to speak of alleviating reliability problems and more powerful servos to increase turning ability.

AAMs are homing missiles, they aim for impact since that reduces miss distance. Aiming anywhere else by definition increases miss distance.

[Zeus67]

Your memory serves you poorly :). It was Vietnam or Korea regarding the 9b, I forget which.

 

Sparrow lethality was increased by incorporating a lot of improvements to guidance, target detection etc, not to speak of alleviating reliability problems and more powerful servos to increase turning ability.

AAMs are homing missiles, they aim for impact since that reduces miss distance. Aiming anywhere else by definition increases miss distance.

 

I'll try to find the document where I read this.

[some1]

Your memory serves you poorly :). It was Vietnam or Korea regarding the 9b, I forget which.

 

There were no Sidewinders in combat use in Korea and by the time of the Vietnam War, AA-2 was the primary A2A weapon on the Fishbeds.

[GGTharos]

Second Taiwan strait crisis apparently - well, according to Wikipedia. So my memory didn't serve me correctly on that either.

[GGTharos]

AAMs have homing and proximity fuzes. The proximity fuzed are for when the miss distance > 0 :)

 

There are command-detonated missiles as well - those are SAMs, especially the command guided ones and it was not usual to detonate some of them in front or near the target. This was more of an issue of command-steering having a fairly large miss distance compared to a homing missile.

 

I'll try to find the document where I read this.

[some1]

Taking this thread completely off topic, there are also anti-air kinetic missiles without warhead:

 

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11092/israel-is-testing-an-air-to-air-variant-of-its-dolphin-nosed-stunner-missile

[asla36]

Taking this thread completely off topic, there are also anti-air kinetic missiles without warhead:

 

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11092/israel-is-testing-an-air-to-air-variant-of-its-dolphin-nosed-stunner-missile

If i remember correctly, this system is better against other missiles.

 

As far as I remember they changed the Patriot anti-missile variant to a hit to kill system as well, getting better results.

[Marsvinet]

If i remember correctly, this system is better against other missiles.

 

As far as I remember they changed the Patriot anti-missile variant to a hit to kill system as well, getting better results.

 

Well, it helps when the thing hitting is telephone pole sized, instead of a street sign sized.

 

Though I wonder how cool it would be if it worked to fire sidewinders against ground stuff

[GGTharos]

The reason it isn't done (IMHO) is because the effect is scantly better than an FFAR but at much greater cost. Use the right tool for the job.

[Sealpup]

Sooo, back to the question at hand. If one uses the DMT to lock on to an air target, will the Sidewinder seeker be cued to that target? Or do you still need to fire them boresight like most other radar-less aircraft?

[GGTharos]

It doesn't have to be a boresight shot though - just get the seeker to lock on and uncage but you don't have to keep pointing it at the target.

 

Good question too though - who knows if those systems are integrated.

[Zeus67]

Sooo, back to the question at hand. If one uses the DMT to lock on to an air target, will the Sidewinder seeker be cued to that target? Or do you still need to fire them boresight like most other radar-less aircraft?

 

It doesn't have to be a boresight shot though - just get the seeker to lock on and uncage but you don't have to keep pointing it at the target.

 

Good question too though - who knows if those systems are integrated.

 

It works only from missile to DMT not the other way around. The DMT will lock on the sidewinder target, allowing you to see it and identify before shooting it.

[asla36]

It works only from missile to DMT not the other way around. The DMT will lock on the sidewinder target, allowing you to see it and identify before shooting it.

That is actually a really helpful feature, since the NA variant doesn't have an IFF interrogator.

[Sealpup]

It works only from missile to DMT not the other way around. The DMT will lock on the sidewinder target, allowing you to see it and identify before shooting it.

 

Not how I was hoping it worked, but useful all the same. Thanks!

[Airj247]

That is actually a really helpful feature, since the NA variant doesn't have an IFF interrogator.

 

Oh God I have enough trouble in my F5

[asla36]

Oh God I have enough trouble in my F5

*Smiles at the sight of Russian Bias)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))*

 

Meanwhile I enjoy my range, and IFF, advantage in the MiG-21bis. Though using radar gives your position away like nothing else, especially when your foe has a superior RWR... Like seriously, why can't you Russians make RWR's!?!? They're all so inferior, especially considering the fact that they were AFAIK the pioneers of the technology...

 

Continuing my off-topic rant about Soviet RWR's, they didn't get the SPO-15 until the 70s! Ok, calm down Asla... You're off topic.

 

1) Back on topic, exactly how reliable will this system be? 2) Will it have issues with the video cancelling due to flares or the missiles rocket motor? 3)Will we have lag tracking areal targets, with the camera following only the IR missiles signal, or will it lock on to the aircraft automatically? 4) In such a case in what conditions will it lose lock, like when the IR missiles one goes somewhere else? 5) And if it will not automatically lock the target, can we do it manually?

[foxbat155]

Good news Asla, in that period ( about 1972, when Bis entered service ) 99.9 % of F-5 had no RWR at all, so Soviet SPO-10 was enough good. SPO-15 production start is 1976 together with Su-17M3. Sorry for off-topic.

[Zeus67]

That is actually a really helpful feature, since the NA variant doesn't have an IFF interrogator.

 

It has something akin to it. It is called Beacon Radar. It was first implemented on the A-7. It is an active interrogator, when active it will send an interrogation signal that will be answered by similarly equipped aircraft.

 

In the A-7, the results were displayed in the radar screen. Remember that the A-7 could not use its radar for AA. It was a specialized AG radar.

 

There is no public documents on how it works in the AV-8B NA since it is a defensive system so very likely it is heavily classified, but I assume that the Beacon works with the Map and the RWR by showing friendly units in the map and tagging the RWR returns as friendly.

 

So while it won't help you detect enemy aircrafts, it will help you in determining who is friend or foe.

 

The only condition is that the other aircraft must have the same equipment.

[jojo]

Even MANPADs like Stinger or Mistral can be equipped with IFF interrogator.

It's not necessarily a big system, and you don't need long range IFF on a Harrier limited to Fox 2 short range missiles.