CBU-97

[mjolner]

Quite possibly this is a dead horse but I couldnt find any releated posts.

 

Was just messing with the Mission Editor and I wanted to watch an F-18 (best option w/o F-15E) drop some CBUs on a mixed column of vehicles. Now I have never used this weapon before even with AI (I have never messed with loadout mods) but I have used the MK20s alot. I have killed alot of T-80s with little trouble with the Rockeyes and I expected even more punch with CBU-97.

 

Its capability was less then expected. I realize that even a MK20 might have a hard time with a T-80 in the real world, I understand all this. I also know that CBU-97 are "supposed" to be more effective against tanks than Rockeyes.

 

I conducted multiple strikes against groups and single tanks. Group kills never happened even with CBUs dropped in pairs. Occasionally a single T-80 would explode after the second pair of bombs. This occured less than 50% of the time. Also bear in mind that I paid particular attention to the blast and bomblet direction in relation to the column. The CBUs make a big boom and make lots of craters when compared to the MK20 but the damage just isnt being done.

 

A direct hit with the MK20 results in a single and sometimes multiple kills more than 90% of the time.

 

So is this really an issue? Is the CBU-97 modeled correctly in relation to other ordnance in the game. Is it intened to be more effective against light armor?

 

There is plenty of iron to lob around in this game so its no big deal. I just thought it curious that the rockeye performed better on armor. I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

[britgliderpilot]

The CBU-97 SHOULD work like this:

 

 

 

I rather doubt that it's modelled in such detail . . . .

[SUBS17]

No but I wonder is it possible to adjust the 97s pk to a more realistic setting?

[MBot]

The version simulated is the CBU-97/B ( IIRC ) wich has a "conventional" clustermunition loadout.

[jurinko]

I use an A-10 loadout mod which allows to use CBU. It works OK against soft targets/BMPs.

[Guest IguanaKing]

The version simulated is the CBU-97/B ( IIRC ) wich has a "conventional" clustermunition loadout.

 

Nope. The CBU-97 has always used the BLU-108 sensor-fuzed submunition, so the LOMAC version is definitely, severely handicapped. ;) All of the cluster weapons in LOMAC could be much more effective if we had the ability to set BA before dropping them.

[Groove]

1st we have to know how effective they are in real life.

[MBot]

Nope. The CBU-97 has always used the BLU-108 sensor-fuzed submunition, so the LOMAC version is definitely, severely handicapped. ;)

 

When I was researching for the new CBU-97 3d model I seem to remember that there is a version of the CBU-97 without the high tech stuff und simple cluster munitions. But now I can't find anything about it. My mind must be playing tricks on me :)

[GGTharos]

That's the CBU-87 :)

 

Anyway realistic modeling for this is on the list, but no arrival date.

[Guest IguanaKing]

1st we have to know how effective they are in real life.

 

There is quite a bit of real-world data available. Even with estimates though, the blast radius varies with BA, so its all relative. The harder the target, the lower the BA has to be to get a kill, but the blast radius gets smaller with a lower BA. So, we would have to set BA depending on what we were trying to kill, which would make things much more interesting. :D

[D-Scythe]

1st we have to know how effective they are in real life.

 

In tests against set formations of vehicles SFW-type weapons like the CBU-97/WCMD and JSOW regularly get two (or more) kills per pass, including tanks. The hypersonic (? - might not be Mach 5) projectile that the weapon discharges to kill its targets was designed to punch through the top armour of any known tank in existence.

 

BTW, SFW stands for sensor fuzed munitions that use "smart" antiarmor submunitions - for all intents and purposes, these bomblets are guided. BA (burst altitude) doesn't have as much impact as it would for SFW cluster weapons, as bomblet density is not a major factor when you have bomblets that are guided.

[GGTharos]

It says nothing about hypersonic ... it's just an explosively formed copper disk penetrator - aka good old HEAT :D

[D-Scythe]

It says nothing about hypersonic ... it's just an explosively formed copper disk penetrator - aka good old HEAT :D

 

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

[Groove]

Thx for the info guys.

[mjolner]

Thanks. You guys know your munitions. Sorry about the number mix up. CBU 87 not 97. Well there are both 87s and 97s, LOMAC uses 97, not sure the difference myself.

[GGTharos]

The difference is huge: CBU-87 uses convetional dual-purpose munitions (basically some HEAT with fragmentation) to attack both soft targets, personnel and to some degree, armor). It has 200 bomblets, IIRC.

 

The CBU-97 uses the BLU-108 skeets - it carries some 40 of those. Each skeet is equipped with an infra red sensor which will fire the HEAT charge when it senses a target through its sernsor - ie. if it flies over a tank, a fire, or a running car, it will fire, and probably destroy the target. After the skeets hit the ground (if they did not find a target) they explode a short time later in an attempt to cause damage to personnel. You have to realize though, those 40 skeets cover a /much/ larger area than any previous CBU.

[SUBS17]

In Iraq a B52 dropped a single CBU97 and destroyed most of the vehicles in a convoy of tanks. The remaining vehicle crews surrendered straight after seeing all the vehicles destroyed. It would be good to be able to adjust the AD as well then we would be less likely to frag ourselves.:doh:

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup, a higher BA with a CBU-97 just gives the BLU-108s more hang time on the parachutes so they have more time to find a target to kill.

[Guest IguanaKing]

When I was researching for the new CBU-97 3d model I seem to remember that there is a version of the CBU-97 without the high tech stuff und simple cluster munitions. But now I can't find anything about it. My mind must be playing tricks on me :)

 

Heh...I think I know where you found it. Strangely enough, the unguided CEB carried in the CBU-87 is the BLU-97/B. That might be where the confusion was. ;)

[tomcat1974]

It says nothing about hypersonic ... it's just an explosively formed copper disk penetrator - aka good old HEAT :D

 

hmmm .. not sure if is HEAT (high explosive anti-tank). The SFW form the projectile out of copper and project it downwards... So in this matter it acts more like a solid penetrator (a preaty damn good one too).

[D-Scythe]

hmmm .. not sure if is HEAT (high explosive anti-tank). The SFW form the projectile out of copper and project it downwards... So in this matter it acts more like a solid penetrator (a preaty damn good one too).

 

That's basically what HEAT is. A HEAT warhead forms a "jet" of superplastic metal that acts as the penetrator (can be considered a projectile I guess). There's no actual explosive/heat involved in the mechanics of the penetration.

[Groove]

google for Monroe-Effect if you want more about the function of HEAT weapons.

[tomcat1974]

That's basically what HEAT is. A HEAT warhead forms a "jet" of superplastic metal that acts as the penetrator (can be considered a projectile I guess). There's no actual explosive/heat involved in the mechanics of the penetration.

 

I know that..

SFW destruction is create via solid penetrator and not plasma jet :)

just a thing ...

end result is what matters

[D-Scythe]

I know that..

SFW destruction is create via solid penetrator and not plasma jet :)

just a thing ...

end result is what matters

 

Care to explain how you create a solid penetrator magically out of copper? AFAIK, you can create a superplastic metal penetrator out of copper, but I don't think even the U.S.A. can magically create a solid, kinetic penetrator out of nothing...?

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

Don't get mixed up between HEAT and SFF (self forging fragment).

 

A shaped charge / HEAT warhead works by forming a very high velocity (eg 10 km/s) molten jet of metal and gas. This is due to the Monroe effect whereby a long conical space in the explosive (usually lined with a thin sheet of copper - chosen as it is heavy yet soft) when detonated will form the jet. The speed that the jet hits the armour is so high that the armour behaves more like a fluid than a solid and penetration occurs.

 

A Self Forging fragment uses the Misnay-Scharden(?spelling?) effect and has a shallow dish shape and the metal liner is squished into a solid projectile travelling at perhaps 1 km/s. The advantage is that this retains its effectiveness against armour when detonated from a considerable distance eg 50 metres or more so is ideal for sub-munitions dropping from above (where tank armour is thinner).

 

An analogy for a HEAT warhead is to try squirting washing-up liquid into a sink of water - do it close to the water and you can see the washing-up liquid jet keeps its consistency well into the water before breaking up. Do it from a distance away and it will not do so well.

 

Can't think of a good analogy for an SFF :(