Buffet onset

[captain_dalan]

Hey there, this one is for Heatblur!

 

As there aren't any FFB sticks out there (that i know off), and the Turkey has quite a bit of temper on herself, what are your plans for making it easier on us drivers and our poor unfortunate trailers (RIOs) to identify any unwanted behavior (like buffet)? Will there be audio cues? Screen shakes? Anything to helps as keep the alpha under control? Or will we have to control her by feel?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Cap' :thumbup:

[Cobra847]

Hey there, this one is for Heatblur!

 

As there aren't any FFB sticks out there (that i know off), and the Turkey has quite a bit of temper on herself, what are your plans for making it easier on us drivers and our poor unfortunate trailers (RIOs) to identify any unwanted behavior (like buffet)? Will there be audio cues? Screen shakes? Anything to helps as keep the alpha under control? Or will we have to control her by feel?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Cap' :thumbup:

 

It's not suuuper hard to control her by feel. Other than that, you get buffeting sounds, buffeting shake as well as the pretty prominent AoA meter on the left hand side of the ACM panel (just under the front windscreen).

I think most of you will learn basic ACM competency in the Cat quickly- it's becoming a master that is the tricky part.

[Kippy]

...poor unfortunate trailers...

Now now, RIOs are more than just self-loading baggage, mind you.. ;)

 

I think we're all excited to get a feel for the F-14's flight characteristics. Let's hope wrestling the Turkey through the air is good fun.

[WindyTX]

I know the Jetseat will be giving you feedback as I will be doing the beta test for it with a retired F14 colleague.

 

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[BlackLion213]

Hi Captain_Dalan,

 

To echo what Cobra said, it really isn't too difficult to maintain ideal AOA during ACM with a little practice. I hope that I didn't overstate the difficulty of ACM in my write-up, but fighting the F-14 is not much more difficult than most other fighters in DCS (like the F-15C). The key issue that the amount of AOA available is often not the amount that the pilot wants during a sustained turn. Also, often the nose point-ability allows you to get the nose moving quickly, but that degree of stick input is a little too much once the airframe "settles" into the turn. So you need to be mindful of AOA building more than some other airplanes. In the F-15C, too much AOA leads you to bleed a lot of energy, but gives really great ITR in the process. In the F-14B, that excessive AOA adds only a bit of additional turn rate, but comes with bad behaviors and the loss of a lot of energy.

 

However, managing AOA is pretty straightforward. The buffet sounds and cockpit shake give you a really good idea of where you are in the envelope (at least in terms of when you are passing through 15 units and don't want to add much more stick) and there are some airframe sounds that show up as AOA gets too high (being tuned right now iirc). Also, just a bit of muscle memory goes a long way and I now have a pretty good idea of how much stick input is needed to hold AOA around ideal. This is aided by a couple of factors: above ~450 KIAS you will be "black-out" limited in terms of stick input and don't need to worry about AOA as much because you have so much G available. Below 250 KIAS you will need to be extra vigilant of both airspeed and AOA, but you probably won't plan to spend much time there. So you really are learning the inputs for speeds ranging from 250-450 KIAS.

 

Quick glances at the AOA gauge are important, especially when you are new to the airplane, but I can fight with my eyes on the opponent and still keep AOA in the ideal range most of the time. With just a bit of practice, it will be second nature. :thumbup:

 

Plus, if you want tactile feedback, WindyTX has the right idea. Something like Jetseat or butt kicker would do the job very well.

 

-Nick

[OnlyforDCS]

Hey there, this one is for Heatblur!

 

As there aren't any FFB sticks out there (that i know off)

 

There are still a lot of people who fly with MSFFB2, myself included. There is also the Logitech G940, and a couple of others.

 

I hope at least "some" FFB support will be included with the F14. It's very well implemented in the Su-27, and I hope Heatblur takes a page from ED's book on this.

[captain_dalan]

....you get buffeting sounds, buffeting shake as well as the pretty prominent AoA meter on the left hand side of the ACM panel (just under the front windscreen).

 

I know the Jetseat will be giving you feedback as I will be doing the beta test for it with a retired F14 colleague.

 

Helpful on all accounts! I haven't been in the air for a while, and this weekend i did fly me some sim, when it dawned to me. Inside the ACM bubble, we all probably spend more then 75% of the time outside to cockpit. I myself almost never check the airspeed and e seldom look at the HUD as well. So any hint of me doing something i should not.....is highly helpful! :thumbup:

 

Hi Captain_Dalan,

 

.....I hope that I didn't overstate the difficulty of ACM in my write-up, but fighting the F-14 is not much more difficult than most other fighters in DCS (like the F-15C). .....

 

Not at all mate, the article is fine. As i mentioned above, during this weekend i was recording my flights and aside from the above conclusion, i lamented the fact i no longer have FFB on my stick.

 

There are still a lot of people who fly with MSFFB2, myself included. There is also the Logitech G940, and a couple of others.

 

I hope at least "some" FFB support will be included with the F14. It's very well implemented in the Su-27, and I hope Heatblur takes a page from ED's book on this.

 

Now just to make clear, i never had a real FFB stick, but my old one had vibrations. Anytime i was on the verge of departing or buffeting, the stick would start to shake. As i went into deep buffet (or stall) it would shake harder, so it was extremely helpful in knowing when to "lay off"..... Alas, the support for my stick ended with win7 and so did the vibrations. I now run a win10 and they are still gone...

 

My new stick (still on the way) won't have them either...... if or when it arrives

 

 

Now now, RIOs are more than just self-loading baggage, mind you..

 

 

BUT OF COURSE!!!! They are not just self-loading baggage.....they are an IMPORTANT self loading baggage!!!! :megalol:

[jcdata]

Hi Captain_Dalan,

 

To echo what Cobra said, it really isn't too difficult to maintain ideal AOA during ACM with a little practice. I hope that I didn't overstate the difficulty of ACM in my write-up, but fighting the F-14 is not much more difficult than most other fighters in DCS (like the F-15C). The key issue that the amount of AOA available is often not the amount that the pilot wants during a sustained turn. Also, often the nose point-ability allows you to get the nose moving quickly, but that degree of stick input is a little too much once the airframe "settles" into the turn. So you need to be mindful of AOA building more than some other airplanes. In the F-15C, too much AOA leads you to bleed a lot of energy, but gives really great ITR in the process. In the F-14B, that excessive AOA adds only a bit of additional turn rate, but comes with bad behaviors and the loss of a lot of energy.

 

However, managing AOA is pretty straightforward. The buffet sounds and cockpit shake give you a really good idea of where you are in the envelope (at least in terms of when you are passing through 15 units and don't want to add much more stick) and there are some airframe sounds that show up as AOA gets too high (being tuned right now iirc). Also, just a bit of muscle memory goes a long way and I now have a pretty good idea of how much stick input is needed to hold AOA around ideal. This is aided by a couple of factors: above ~450 KIAS you will be "black-out" limited in terms of stick input and don't need to worry about AOA as much because you have so much G available. Below 250 KIAS you will need to be extra vigilant of both airspeed and AOA, but you probably won't plan to spend much time there. So you really are learning the inputs for speeds ranging from 250-450 KIAS.

 

Quick glances at the AOA gauge are important, especially when you are new to the airplane, but I can fight with my eyes on the opponent and still keep AOA in the ideal range most of the time. With just a bit of practice, it will be second nature.

 

Plus, if you want tactile feedback, WindyTX has the right idea. Something like Jetseat or butt kicker would do the job very well.

 

-Nick

The f15 has its own set of issues... There is adverse yaw to a roll.. typical, departure characteristic.... the bitburg roll...

 

there is onset buffet with any aircraft.

 

Infamous pilot will bring the fight slower in where they use asymmetric thrust, cross controls... Talking Ludwig, hose, flash Sr and flash jr.. snort..etc..

 

 

The F110 engine variant, great at fighting at 250 cas.

 

 

 

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[WindyTX]

Infamous pilot will bring the fight slower in where they use asymmetric thrust, cross controls... Talking Ludwig, hose, flash Sr and flash jr.. snort..etc..

 

Can I ask for an expansion never heard of these techniques?

 

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[VampireNZ]

Infamous pilot will bring the fight slower in where they use asymmetric thrust, cross controls... Talking Ludwig, hose, flash Sr and flash jr.. snort..etc..

 

Can I ask for an expansion never heard of these techniques?

 

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Was reading something recently, think from/regarding Snort, that due to the lateral seperation of the engines the guys could use assymetric thrust to rate the nose much faster and in directions never intended in 'normal' ACM.

Will link/quote if I manage to find it again, but been reading a lot about the Tomcat lately.

Edited September 21, 2017 by VampireNZ

[WindyTX]

Sounds a bit like Harrier Viffing completely useless in the real world as it would only work at low speed.

 

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[VampireNZ]

Sounds a bit like Harrier Viffing completely useless in the real world as it would only work at low speed.

 

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Haha if you say so man.

Last I checked you don't dogfight at Mach 2.0, but in any case - I would leave the determination of what was useless or not to the guys that actually flew it. :thumbup:

[WindyTX]

Yea I am gonna ask mt colleague in Hkg he has a couple of tours on F14s. It was a Harrier pilot that told me viffing was useless in combat when we were briefing before a 2v2 DACT.

Differential thrust is interesting idea but for it to be more effective than rudder it has to be low speed , could make for a hell of a guns jink I guess ..

 

 

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[RaceFuel85]

Lakenheath Eagles gave a good account of VIFFing when doing DACT with RAF Harriers..with new pilots who weren't expecting it the VIFFing was very effective, but once the Eagles saw the signs of VIFFing happening they'd just go vertical and wait until the Harrier was out of energy, convert on them and drill their brains out.

[WindyTX]

 

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[captain_dalan]

Lakenheath Eagles gave a good account of VIFFing when doing DACT with RAF Harriers..with new pilots who weren't expecting it the VIFFing was very effective, but once the Eagles saw the signs of VIFFing happening they'd just go vertical and wait until the Harrier was out of energy, convert on them and drill their brains out.

Beat me to it. Quite a few jocks seams to have gotten waxed by underestimating the little bugger.

[WindyTX]

I assume they were not flying a fighter

 

By which I mean an A2A aircraft vice a bomber.

 

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Edited September 22, 2017 by WindyTX

[WindyTX]

From a retired F14 Pilot

"

I didnt know many guys(maybe one or two) that used dif thrust during ACM, partly due to the fact we had two big ass rudders that were pretty effective. Perhaps during a "rudder reversal"...if you ran out of energy on the front side of a loop, around 45-60 nose up, you'd come out of blower and put in full rudder to pivot around the vertical access to nose down, reversing 180 degs. You could use dif thrust to aide this but your nose track rate may pick up too much and activate the spin recovery assist for the airframes with DFCS..digital flight control systems, a later mod for all F-14s...that would buy you a front row ticket to the shit show.

 

Also on the GE engines we had ATLS..asymmetric thrust limiting system, it would hold one engine in a min blower until the other lit off, so you couldnt do crazy dif thrust anyway. Max dif would be idle on one, min blow on the other."

 

Well I look forward to giving that a go, Hurry up Heatblur.

 

 

 

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[VampireNZ]

From a retired F14 Pilot

"

I didnt know many guys(maybe one or two) that used dif thrust during ACM, partly due to the fact we had two big ass rudders that were pretty effective. Perhaps during a "rudder reversal"...if you ran out of energy on the front side of a loop, around 45-60 nose up, you'd come out of blower and put in full rudder to pivot around the vertical access to nose down, reversing 180 degs. You could use dif thrust to aide this but your nose track rate may pick up too much and activate the spin recovery assist for the airframes with DFCS..digital flight control systems, a later mod for all F-14s...that would buy you a front row ticket to the shit show.

 

Also on the GE engines we had ATLS..asymmetric thrust limiting system, it would hold one engine in a min blower until the other lit off, so you couldnt do crazy dif thrust anyway. Max dif would be idle on one, min blow on the other."

 

Well I look forward to giving that a go, Hurry up Heatblur.

 

 

 

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Nice, cheers. Yeah I will keep an eye out on where I was reading that stuff, noting his comments about the DFCS I think I read this was performed on the early A's . The thing about rudder authority is you need airflow over them, differential thrust does not. Handy to have such large lateral spacing in your pocket compared to say an F-5.

Clearly it wasn't a SOP maneuver carried out daily - but you know as well as I do that when you put the boy in their toys 'fighting' it out, then 'things' will be attempted lol.

 

Still remember a very interesting chat with a RAAF F/A-18 pilot and watching his HUD tape while fighting one of our MB-339CB's, Hornet was bringing the nose to bear in a 6g turn when our guy promptly pushed max negative G and just blitzed off the bottom off his HUD...he was like wtf, where is he going?

A highly illegal move as per our SOP's as it could be fatal, due to going from an AGSM straight to max negative G - which can blow out blood vessels in your brain as moments before everything was being done to force blood up there!

[WindyTX]

Yea he was like wtf cos it is uncomfortable as hell and no one ever pushes cos it only costs a second for a roll and pull, but for a guns jink if someone was really shooting at you, you may have too, I never did it in training.

 

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[turkeydriver]

Nice, cheers. Yeah I will keep an eye out on where I was reading that stuff, noting his comments about the DFCS I think I read this was performed on the early A's . The thing about rudder authority is you need airflow over them, differential thrust does not. Handy to have such large lateral spacing in your pocket compared to say an F-5.

Clearly it wasn't a SOP maneuver carried out daily - but you know as well as I do that when you put the boy in their toys 'fighting' it out, then 'things' will be attempted lol.

 

Still remember a very interesting chat with a RAAF F/A-18 pilot and watching his HUD tape while fighting one of our MB-339CB's, Hornet was bringing the nose to bear in a 6g turn when our guy promptly pushed max negative G and just blitzed off the bottom off his HUD...he was like wtf, where is he going?

A highly illegal move as per our SOP's as it could be fatal, due to going from an AGSM straight to max negative G - which can blow out blood vessels in your brain as moments before everything was being done to force blood up there!

 

Hoser Satrapa also used max negative G in ACM as it iisnt natural or expected. Hurt the crew, not the jet.