MiG-35 and MiG-29SMT presentation

[Pilotasso]

Bear in mind that LPI is not exclusive to Raptor. F-18E/F Rafale, F-15C (APG-63V3) Eurofighter will have too, and a few more I might be forgeting on the moment.

[Force_Feedback]

I am sure they also made some modifications on the ECM systems to counter certain missiles and radars, it seems a logical thing to do at least. Offcourse, no Smotr special on that one in the coming 10 years :P

[GGTharos]

...of Any fighter? Even by the F-22's RWR placed in other F-22?

What is LPI in this context? Radars and radio transmittion system's feature at all, which of F-22 and F-35 radars has, or specific mode of F-22 and F-35 radar with less probability of signal intercept and limited range and others limitations? Are there LPI and non-LPI modes present in this devices?

 

I do not have the article handy, but it was produced by USAF or USN - an RWR can pick up an LPI radar reliably but requires new hardware to do so. So far no fighter (except maybe F-22/35?) is equipped with this, but it will not be long before that happens, I am sure.

I don't think LPI modes would necessarily reduce range - maybe a little, but I am also certain that there are non-LPI modes since this would -probably- have a processing time and power advantage, but this is only a guess.

LPI is basically a feature that consists of some things like, not scanning the same part of sky regularely (random sector scan), changing power of transmission, and changing pulse configuration and frequencies often to prevent the RWR from queueing the signal as anything but noise that must be rejected.

 

I heard about test with F-15 radar, which can't detect and lock a F-22 even in visual range. Nothing about of same test with IRST. It will be interesting to look at this.

Maximal detection range for head-on airborne target (not for stealth target aircraft, for MiG-29 for example in this film) of this OLS (which has both optical and IR channel) is 15 km - in WWR.

 

I have heard that F-22 uses an active cooling system for leading edges - perhaps OLS would see it farther, but missiles may have some problems until they are closer. But this is tru 'hear-say'. I don't know if its really true, though the source was not entirely without credit.

[tflash]

The OLS might be good enough to fend of some heavily laden F-35's on a strike mission also. I guess A2A combat will become "enhanced WVR" with all these new optronics coming into fruition.

[Force_Feedback]

The video makes me understand that it's about sensor fusion and enhanced situational awareness, and a quicker response time due to the automatic recognition features, nowhere does it say that optronics will become the new radar on all planes. I guess the 'enhanced WVR' statement is very appropriate for this system. Also, the Mig-35 is not profiled as an air dominance fighter, it's just the versatile day to day job plane, able to do a wide range of tasks. Actually the most remarkable thing is that the new OLS was designed on a short notice and from the ground up by a team consisting mainly of young engineers, not bound by the conservative thinking of older designers. That's what they say on the show at least. Also the new system uses fiber optics that can handle 600 mbit (my connection is 1/6th the speed of a Mig-35, weee!), the big chief also said that this would never have happened if the old ruling had their way. Again, a possible revision of thinking by the ex-Soviet aviation industry.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

F-22's and F-35's AESA LPI radars are not interceptable by any known system on board of any fighter yet.

:poster_offtopic:

BTW the F-22 cannot be designated by IRST in frontal aspect even in visual range, there are reports of that.

:poster_offtopic:

Its just apalling the way you speculate with litle knoewlege.

:poster_offtopic:

[GGTharos]

^^^^ You sure? Are you a little OT too then?

 

It is interesting indeed to see Russians continuing to improve optical technology on their aircraft. Stealth as in case of F-22, F-35 is good until they turn the radar on. Optical infrared systems are not stealth, they are invisible to opponent.

[Force_Feedback]

His quoted statement is right, improving doesn't mean increase in detection range, but, as I said 2 times before, more intelligence and a better situational awareness. Now cut the crap with the OT discussions, or accusing eachother saying something OT.

 

Also, the new quartz glass dome will make it more scratch resistant, not deminishing the tracking quality over time. In the video it was said that the old OLS balls became like sanded after a while, deminishing the optical consistency.

I liked the comparison they made in the video, 'a radar always has been considered as the eyes of a fighter, well, this system can actually be called that, radar is more like ranging organs found on animals, like bats' (not litteral, but he did say it). They also said the IR system used some exotic wavelength, unlike most other IRST devices.

 

Man that thing would be great for ground pounding, spotting tanks, telling what type they are (rather strange, but guess it has datalink advantages, so 'others' know what kind of threat that aircraft is up against). It was also told that the laser and missile warning receivers had a little over full hemispherical coverage. All interesting developments for this old airframe if you ask me. I wouldn't call it revolutionary, but it sure is a good leap to be on par with the F-16/Rafale/Gripen/F-18F/J-10

[Pilotasso]

Just watched the SMOTR documentary about the Mig-35, heres a quote from the show:

 

"OLS works not only in visible bands. Very important part of “plane vision” is IR picture. NII PP engineers has chosen more short-wave bands for the matrix, which has increased sensitivity of the complex in several times and has increased detection range greatly.

 

MiG-35 OLS may see USAF stealth planes very nicely as well. Today it’s impossible to hide the plane from the complex of powerful optics with IR vision.

 

Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: “Stealth technology today is mostly decreasing it’s visibility in radio bands. But for the optical bands, especially in IR ranges the main parameter is temperature. And you can do nothing about it. Engines have great flow of hot air which can be detected perfectly from the big range if we are behind the plane. If we are going face to face, so first of all we still see some part of this flow and second we can see the front edges of wings which meet air flow and become warm too.”

"

 

This confirms to me although an interesiting plane, its optical system is not much different from those used already in exercises that I had described above. Apparently the OLS still depends on IR to track aircraft, the enterviewed engineer claims that "there is nothing you can do to hide a plane from temperature differences" wich is exactly the second side of F-22's stealth. Its engines are hidden from frontal aspect and it has active airframe cooling by the means of fuel irrigation systems (it must be horribly complex and expensive though) where fuel is preheated before ingestion to the engines at the cost of skin temperature. More, all optical wavelengths of the OLS are blocked by clouds.

 

The things is thus limited by weather and range. The video claims target ID at 15km wich is terribly short(they didnt have a Raptor to test but their own planes so take this with a grain of salt). Mig-35 is a cute interesting plane but IMHO suggestions that it can beat F-22's is a bit going too far.

 

Mig-35 is an atempt to match Legacy F-18's F-16's and other types of the same class and close a 20 year gap that has been plaging Russian AF and its custumers for years. Dont ask for more. IMHo it seems a good plane but it still has an achiles heel, no missiles to match it.

[Святой]

I don't think LPI modes would necessarily reduce range - maybe a little, but I am also certain that there are non-LPI modes since this would -probably- have a processing time and power advantage, but this is only a guess.

No doubts about greatly increasing of processing time and necessary power. But detection range is determinated by mean power of a radar signal and time of returning signals accumulation. I don't think that the APG-77s signals has same mean power in LPI mode when it in non-LPI mode, certainly much less. Low power considerably easy to hide than high. But it possible to compensate this by increasing time of signal accumulation (already this time has a limit), but it will decrease scan speed, and worse accuracy of coordinates measuring and radar resolution. If even detection distance stay same (I doubt about it), other parameters of radar perfomance will be worse than in non-LPI mode.

LPI is basically a feature that consists of some things like, not scanning the same part of sky regularely (random sector scan), changing power of transmission, and changing pulse configuration and frequencies often to prevent the RWR from queueing the signal as anything but noise that must be rejected.

Just continuous changing of signal parameters and random scan pattern?

I heard about something different. Main idea of LPI - maximum possible spreading of signals power in "frequency-time" space, reducing pulse power (by using very-very long pulses with low power) and reducing spectrum density (by using wide-spectrum signals) and using irregular signals forms, modulations, scan patterns for maximum signal unrecognizable on noise background. I think using of lower mean power and longer accumulation time will be necessary also.

[Pilotasso]

No doubts about great increasing processing time and power. Detection range is determinated by mean power of a radar signal and time of returning signals accumulation. I don't think that the APG-77s signals has same mean power in LPI mode when it in non-LPI mode, certainly much less.

 

You are right, this is hard to avoid, the french had LPI implemented on their AESA radars for the Rafales but have been criticised for the range compromise it caused. Im certain that if needed the radar can be swiched into non LPI mode but for the time being we have already been hinted that APG-77 doesnt lack in range at all even on LPI in any way being it a much larger and powerfull radar than the french ones.

[ViperEagle]

Eh...

 

IRST is useful, but not a magic eye. The F-14D had IRST too, in the dual chin-pod with the long range television telescope. The F-35 and F-22, as well as modifications to the Super Hornet, are difficult to detect in a frontal or forward hemisphere with IRST. You cant effectively kill that which you cant see.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

A red flag exercise described in Code one magazine quotes an angry pilot after he had been "killed" while he was trying to aquire a Raptor in visual range with his helmet sight.

Was angry pilot piloting the MiG-35? Was angry pilot using the IRST from MiG-35 on a different airplane? Was angry pilot using IRST to acquire and if yes, what airplane did angry pilot fly?

[GGTharos]

No doubts about greatly increasing of processing time and necessary power. But detection range is determinated by mean power of a radar signal and time of returning signals accumulation. I don't think that the APG-77s signals has same mean power in LPI mode when it in non-LPI mode, certainly much less. Low power considerably easy to hide than high. But it possible to compensate this by increasing time of signal accumulation (already this time has a limit), but it will decrease scan speed, and worse accuracy of coordinates measuring and radar resolution. If even detection distance stay same (I doubt about it), other parameters of radar perfomance will be worse than in non-LPI mode.

 

You could compromize by detecting targets using a less stealthy method and then monitoring them using LPI techniques. The pilot might dismiss the original momentary scan as a false positive :).

 

For the purpose of SA, data does not need to be terribly accurate, I think.

 

Just continuous changing of signal parameters and random scan pattern?

I heard about something different. Main idea of LPI - maximum possible spreading of signals power in "frequency-time" space, reducing pulse power (by using very-very long pulses with low power) and reducing spectrum density (by using wide-spectrum signals) and using irregular signals forms, modulations, scan patterns for maximum signal unrecognizable on noise background. I think using of lower mean power and longer accumulation time will be necessary also.

 

 

I think you are right; because you have the necessary compromize, it is possible to build an RWR to detect an LPI radar. Of course at that time, new techniques must be created ... :)

[D-Scythe]

Was angry pilot piloting the MiG-35? Was angry pilot using the IRST from MiG-35 on a different airplane? Was angry pilot using IRST to acquire and if yes, what airplane did angry pilot fly?

 

Since we're already making stuff up, I'm going to venture out and say that this "angry" pilot was flying the Su-35. The Russians sent their planes to help the U.S. test out their stealth technology.

[tflash]

I find the underbelly sensor quite innovative. It's a kind of integrated Lantirn targeting pod, and reminds the setup of the F-117, with one frontal and one belly sensor.

 

I wonder how its performance compares to the best on the market, like Rafael Litening III or LM Sniper XR?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Since we're already making stuff up, I'm going to venture out and say that this "angry" pilot was flying the Su-35. The Russians sent their planes to help the U.S. test out their stealth technology.

This is funny! :thumbup:

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

What’s really remarkable with the video footage is the fact on how poor those Russian laboratories look like. There is a scope here and there, one signal generator on the table and few pieces of equipment here and there. That tells me that Russia is still having tough economical times.

 

When looking at the footages of western labs, they are full of equipment.

[Pilotasso]

What’s really remarkable with the video footage is the fact on how poor those Russian laboratories look like. There is a scope here and there, one signal generator on the table and few pieces of equipment here and there. That tells me that Russia is still having tough economical times.

 

When looking at the footages of western labs, they are full of equipment.

Yeah I noticed that, but then again something else surprised me even more: They actualy filmed it along with the tools and parts on the shelves. if you did that here even for declassifyed material like the C-130 parts I work on every day it would get a guy fired and even possibly suffer some kind of punishable offense.

[Alfa]

LOL. He's so transparent in his hatred for anything western.

 

Stop fishing for a fight Ruggbutt.

[nscode]

And they are so charmed by that glass... everyone wants a look :D

[ViperEagle]

Was angry pilot piloting the MiG-35? Was angry pilot using the IRST from MiG-35 on a different airplane? Was angry pilot using IRST to acquire and if yes, what airplane did angry pilot fly?

 

 

The MiG-35 has great promise, there's no doubt about this..but really, until I see combat exercise reports about the MiG-35's combat effectiveness, I tend to avoid frantic fanboy wanking over it. As I said, I think it's a great aircraft with fantastic potential, but all it's done is fly a few demos so far..I havent seen anything to back up it's uberplane status.

 

Now before anyone says "What about the F-22 fanboys!", yes, even they need to STFU.

[Pilotasso]

Mig-35 is hardly an Uberplane, an SU-30MKI has no problem to out range, out detect and outgun it badly in every aspect.

[ViperEagle]

I know, but tell that to some of the rapidly breeding fanboys.

[Alfa_Kilo]

Mig-35 is hardly an Uberplane, an SU-30MKI has no problem to out range, out detect and outgun it badly in every aspect.

 

Thats a sweeping statement.

 

Out range: Both carry the same A2A weapons.

Out detect: true, in terms of radar capabilities, no EO.

Out gun: Partly true, greater warload at 8000kg vs 6000kg for the -35, more A-2 weapon types...