New MIRAGE 2000 Flight Model

[Fri13]

Which part of the vid? I don't see anything different from what we have already..

 

Check example 1:18 position, at least in that it jumps right away to 8.5G or so.

 

I haven't tested the new flight model at all, but based to alone the video, the old one was sluggish even when with 20% fuel.

[jojo]

Check example 1:18 position, at least in that it jumps right away to 8.5G or so.

 

I haven't tested the new flight model at all, but based to alone the video, the old one was sluggish even when with 20% fuel.

 

Lets not mix up everything.Please test the new FM before criticizing it.

Thanks.

[jojo]

The last bit is exactly my point, because its completely impossible atm. With the current FM you cannot, nomatter how hard you try, pass 9 G's, even momentarily. The ingame FCS slows down the G onset so much as to make it impossible, i.e. no elasticity at all.

 

As a result the ingame Mirage 2000 cannot pull off anywhere near as abrupt changes in pitch/G as the real aircraft, something which is made abundantly clear when watching HUD recordings from the real thing.

 

In short it is clear to me that the current FM is NOT realistic as it simply looks nothing like the real thing.

 

Clearly here you are going overboard.

 

Please sustain your claim with any evidence that we should be able to over-G in normal FBW mode.

 

that's the very purpose of the FBW system to protect the aircraft from flight from overriding the limits.

 

Find a moment in the video where the plane goes above 9G...

 

Stick elastic stop/ mechanical stop:

- Real aircraft: there are spring systems. The elastic stop needs 10kg of pull force to reach, then there is a wall and you need 40kg of force to break it.

So you won't do it by accident.

- DCS module: by default full stick aft is elastic limit. You need to hold the "AP off" button to go to mechanical stop. and exceed to 9G/ 29° AoA limit.

 

When you have the speed to get 9G (typically aboce 350kt CAS at low altitude and above higher), the FBW is in "G mode".

Neutral stick is 1 G, full aft stick is 9 G.

So when the pilot pull aft stick all the way to elastic stop he is asking to the plane "I want 9 G", and the plane goes there (as long as he has the speed).

 

The FBW monitors everything, temperature, pressure, speed, aircraft position, stick position etc..

The pilot isn't commanding pitch rate, he is commanding G load, but obviously the pitch rate is monitored in the loop to not override the G load limit.

 

The link has already been posted a few times, but once more won't do any arm:

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS1984/ICAS-84-4.5.1.pdf

[jojo]

@plaiskool, I suggest you go and read this, please: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=197059

You'll notice that the things you ask about are known since before the updage was published ;)

 

Better? :)

 

Cheers,

Az'

 

By the way, follow the link, and you'll see the shortcomings are already listed and will be addressed.

[Fri13]

Lets not mix up everything.Please test the new FM before criticizing it.

Thanks.

 

I didn't criticize the new one (and btw, criticizing is always positive, not negative) but mentioned how the old one was sluggish compared to that video.

 

Someone asked more accurate point in the video about fast high G generation, and I pointed out that point. Not hinting what the new one is, as I don't even have experience on that as I said. :music_whistling:

[Hummingbird]

Clearly here you are going overboard.

 

Please sustain your claim with any evidence that we should be able to over-G in normal FBW mode.

 

that's the very purpose of the FBW system to protect the aircraft from flight from overriding the limits.

 

Find a moment in the video where the plane goes above 9G...

 

Stick elastic stop/ mechanical stop:

- Real aircraft: there are spring systems. The elastic stop needs 10kg of pull force to reach, then there is a wall and you need 40kg of force to break it.

So you won't do it by accident.

- DCS module: by default full stick aft is elastic limit. You need to hold the "AP off" button to go to mechanical stop. and exceed to 9G/ 29° AoA limit.

 

When you have the speed to get 9G (typically aboce 350kt CAS at low altitude and above higher), the FBW is in "G mode".

Neutral stick is 1 G, full aft stick is 9 G.

So when the pilot pull aft stick all the way to elastic stop he is asking to the plane "I want 9 G", and the plane goes there (as long as he has the speed).

 

The FBW monitors everything, temperature, pressure, speed, aircraft position, stick position etc..

The pilot isn't commanding pitch rate, he is commanding G load, but obviously the pitch rate is monitored in the loop to not override the G load limit.

 

The link has already been posted a few times, but once more won't do any arm:

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS1984/ICAS-84-4.5.1.pdf

 

Ok let me try to explain again.

 

First of all I personally never claimed that the Mirage 2000 should be able to OVER G (i.e. exceed 9 G), instead I specifically asked wether the FCS was intrusive/powerful enough that it quite simply didn't allow this (even momentarily), to which the answer was "It allows up to 11 G's momentarily... elastic limit etc."

 

And the above answer (11 G, momentarily, elastic limit) does make some sense based on the HUD video as there we can see the G's put on so quickly that the FCS might not be able to just stop it instantly at 9 G (hard stop), and instead 11 G's is perhaps attainable momentarily before the FCS finally slows down and stops the build up of Gs and corrects pitch back down to 9 G.

 

 

Wether or not the M2000 can infact exceed 9 G's is not what I am really that concerned about however, what I am concerned about is the speed at which the real thing can evidently build up positive G's and how this just isn't possible ingame.

 

In summary:

 

1. The HUD video demonstrates almost instant build up in G from 1 to 8+ G, something which is not at all possible to replicate with the current ingame FM where the speed of build up is, by comparison, kept low (capped) by the FCS.

 

2. According to what people here have said the real life FCS has an elastic limit of 11 G's (as is common with FCS's in other aircraft), i.e. a quick jerk on the stick can produce up to 11 G's which the FCS will then work to decrease to the 9 G limit, preventing the pilot from overshooting the limits other than momentarily. However this elastic limit simply isn't there with the ingame FM as overshooting the 9 G limit is already made impossible due to the FCS capping the speed at which G's can be piled on in the first place.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

I didn't criticize the new one (and btw, criticizing is always positive, not negative) but mentioned how the old one was sluggish compared to that video.

 

Someone asked more accurate point in the video about fast high G generation, and I pointed out that point. Not hinting what the new one is, as I don't even have experience on that as I said. :music_whistling:

 

The new FM only allows an even slower build up in Gs, seemingly capped by the FCS to prevent any possible way of exceeding the 9 G limit even for a fleeting milisecond. And this is what I contend is an inacccuracy in the FM as compared with the real aircraft = the speed at which G's can be piled on, and not wether 9 G's can be exceeded (which some claim it can up 11 G momentarily).

Edited December 27, 2017 by Hummingbird

[jojo]

Ok let me try to explain again.

 

First of all I personally never claimed that the Mirage 2000 should be able to OVER G (i.e. exceed 9 G), instead I specifically asked wether the FCS was intrusive/powerful enough that it quite simply didn't allow this (even momentarily), to which the answer was "It allows up to 11 G's momentarily... elastic limit etc."

 

And the above answer (11 G, momentarily, elastic limit) does make some sense based on the HUD video as there we can see the G's put on so quickly that the FCS might not be able to just stop it instantly at 9 G (hard stop), and instead 11 G's is perhaps attainable momentarily before the FCS finally slows down and stops the build up of Gs and corrects pitch back down to 9 G.

 

 

Wether or not the M2000 can infact exceed 9 G's is not what I am really that concerned about however, what I am concerned about is the speed at which the real thing can evidently build up positive G's and how this just isn't possible ingame.

 

In summary:

 

1. The HUD video demonstrates almost instant build up in G from 1 to 8+ G, something which is not at all possible to replicate with the current ingame FM where the speed of build up is, by comparison, kept low (capped) by the FCS.

 

2. According to what people here have said the real life FCS has an elastic limit of 11 G's (as is common with FCS's in other aircraft), i.e. a quick jerk on the stick can produce up to 11 G's which the FCS will then work to decrease to the 9 G limit, preventing the pilot from overshooting the limits other than momentarily. However this elastic limit simply isn't there with the ingame FM as overshooting the 9 G limit is already made impossible due to the FCS capping the speed at which G's can be piled on in the first place.

 

I just explained the elastic limit thing in the very post you quoted.

 

It isn't "elastic" in the sense of "the plane will go over the limit then will decrease".

 

The "elastic" refers to the physical stick stop.

You pull all the way back and you're at 9G.

With a huge supplementary effort (from 10kg to 40kg force of traction) you can pull a little more on the stick and override G/ AoA limitation.

 

This system as been replicated in the module. But instead of pulling 40kg on your stick (which would likely break it) you have to depress a button (AP OFF) to override the limit. And it has been there for a looooong time, even before FBW change.

 

So Yes, in normal mode the FBW prevent you from over G. You have to seriously pull the stick to do it (or in DCS press a button).

Edited December 27, 2017 by jojo

[Gliptal]

What about the G onset @jojo?

[jojo]

What about the G onset @jojo?

 

I agree it's too slow, but CptSmiley warned us:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3311007&postcount=1

- Pitch control response tuning (needs a minor increase in responsiveness)

- FBW Oscillation condition (edge case where FBW oscillation can be created)

 

So there is no need to argue about that on repeat mode :smilewink:

 

There is a process of trials and errors.

 

Before this update, the plane had too low sustained turn rate and incorrect FBW behavior.

Now we have a better FBW behavior and better sustained turn rate. It still needs tweaking.

 

Yet it has been released in current state (in 2 steps since we had a quick fix for glide ratio) as stop gap.

But IMHO it's still is better than what we had before.

 

The flight behavior depends on:

- Aircraft flight parameters (lift, drag, thrust etc...)

- full authority 3 axis FBW system.

 

As far as I know this is the 1st module in DCS with this kind of FBW. The next one will be F/A-18C Hornet.

Edited December 27, 2017 by jojo

[Gliptal]

Yeah I was simply curious, now that I know that the FM is being worked I have no issue with it having problems.

[NakedSquirrel]

Thanks jojo very informative replies

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

I agree it's too slow, but CptSmiley warned us:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3311007&postcount=1

 

 

So there is no need to argue about that on repeat mode :smilewink:

 

There is a process of trials and errors.

 

Before this update, the plane had too low sustained turn rate and incorrect FBW behavior.

Now we have a better FBW behavior and better sustained turn rate. It still needs tweaking.

 

Yet it has been released in current state (in 2 steps since we had a quick fix for glide ratio) as stop gap.

But IMHO it's still is better than what we had before.

 

The flight behavior depends on:

- Aircraft flight parameters (lift, drag, thrust etc...)

- full authority 3 axis FBW system.

 

As far as I know this is the 1st module in DCS with this kind of FBW. The next one will be F/A-18C Hornet.

 

Jojo, stupid question maybe but Im out for holydays and cant test myself...when you say "ap off" button you mean the "ap ON/off" button or there is an specific OFF button??...

 

Thanks a lot!

[myHelljumper]

It's a HOTAS control, I don't remember the precise label but it's like "AP Disconnect".

It's a different keybind than AP standby.

[plaiskool]

The switch is "Auto pilot disconnect/Exceed elastique limit".

[myHelljumper]

The switch is "Auto pilot disconnect/Exceed elastique limit".

 

That's it, thank you :thumbup:

[Hummingbird]

I just explained the elastic limit thing in the very post you quoted.

 

It isn't "elastic" in the sense of "the plane will go over the limit then will decrease".

 

The "elastic" refers to the physical stick stop.

You pull all the way back and you're at 9G.

With a huge supplementary effort (from 10kg to 40kg force of traction) you can pull a little more on the stick and override G/ AoA limitation.

 

This system as been replicated in the module. But instead of pulling 40kg on your stick (which would likely break it) you have to depress a button (AP OFF) to override the limit. And it has been there for a looooong time, even before FBW change.

 

So Yes, in normal mode the FBW prevent you from over G. You have to seriously pull the stick to do it (or in DCS press a button).

 

Ok that is all fine, but my main concern is the speed of G onset which is clearly too low ingame, making the aircraft very sluggish in pitch.

[Hummingbird]

I agree it's too slow, but CptSmiley warned us:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3311007&postcount=1

 

 

So there is no need to argue about that on repeat mode :smilewink:

 

There is a process of trials and errors.

 

Before this update, the plane had too low sustained turn rate and incorrect FBW behavior.

Now we have a better FBW behavior and better sustained turn rate. It still needs tweaking.

 

Yet it has been released in current state (in 2 steps since we had a quick fix for glide ratio) as stop gap.

But IMHO it's still is better than what we had before.

 

The flight behavior depends on:

- Aircraft flight parameters (lift, drag, thrust etc...)

- full authority 3 axis FBW system.

 

As far as I know this is the 1st module in DCS with this kind of FBW. The next one will be F/A-18C Hornet.

 

But AFAIK the F/A-18's FCS does allow over G momentarily?

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

It's a HOTAS control, I don't remember the precise label but it's like "AP Disconnect".

It's a different keybind than AP standby.

 

The switch is "Auto pilot disconnect/Exceed elastique limit".

 

Great!thanks both, will try when at home :thumbup:

[jojo]

But AFAIK the F/A-18's FCS does allow over G momentarily?

 

The funny thing is that the real Hornet works a little bit like the DCS M-2000 module :lol:

 

There is a paddle at the bottom of the stick:

Nosewheel steering disengage

Auto Pilot disengage

G limiter override switch => In the real Mirage 2000 just pull more than 40kg on the stick.:joystick:

 

The g limiter may be overridden by momentarily pressing the paddle switch with the control stick

near full aft. Command limit g is then increased by 33%. A G-LIM OVRD caution is displayed and the

MASTER CAUTION light and tone come on. A code is stored in the nose wheelwell DDI when the g

limiter is overridden. Override is disengaged when the control stick is returned to near neutral.

 

Hornet: There are cases (depending on weight and specific load) where you may over-G.

But the system tries to prevent it, like it does on M-2000C.

Edited December 27, 2017 by jojo

[Hummingbird]

The funny thing is that the real Hornet works a little bit like the DCS M-2000 module :lol:

 

Maybe, but again not with a slow G onset.

 

There is a paddle at the bottom of the stick:

Nosewheel steering disengage

Auto Pilot disengage

G limiter override switch => In the real Mirage 2000 just pull more than 40kg on the stick.:joystick:

 

40 kg ?! Jesus, and they said you needed a lot of strength to pull a 109 out of a high speed dive, trying to get over 9 G's in the M2000 beats that feat handily though :lol:

 

Hornet: There are cases (depending on weight and specific load) where you may over-G.

But the system tries to prevent it, like it does on M-2000C.

 

Well that only sounds logical considering how fast both both aircraft can build up G's in real life.

[jojo]

What you doesn't seem to understand is that human's reaction time is like 0.X second.

FBW's reaction time is like 0.00X seconds.

 

For the Mirage 2000C the stick command AoA or G depending on speed. They dis a different choice than MDD with the Hornet. In the Mirage if you pull full aft stick you are telling the plane "I want 9G". So the plane will give you 9G and the pitch rate is monitored. The FBW will control the control surfaces to not overshoot the order.

 

You have more freedom in the Hornet, you can go further, but you can screw it up.

The Mirage seems more "care free".

[Hummingbird]

What you doesn't seem to understand is that human's reaction time is like 0.X second.

FBW's reaction time is like 0.00X seconds.

 

Not sure what ever gave you the idea I didn't undertand this? All I've been pointing out is the unrealistically low speed of G onset in the FM, that's it.

 

For the Mirage 2000C the stick command AoA or G depending on speed. They dis a different choice than MDD with the Hornet. In the Mirage if you pull full aft stick you are telling the plane "I want 9G". So the plane will give you 9G and the pitch rate is monitored. The FBW will control the control surfaces to not overshoot the order.

 

Sure, but it is clearly capable of doing this whilst keeping G onset very fast as evidenced by the HUD video

 

You have more freedom in the Hornet, you can go further, but you can screw it up.

The Mirage seems more "care free".

 

You could say the Mirage is more "care free", as with the F-16, but in an all or nothing dogfight that little bit extra can potentially be a life saver.

 

IIRC in the Hornet you can momentarily exceed the limit much the same way as in the F-15, and if need be completely disconnect the limiter by pressing the paddle on the stick as you mentioned.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Hummingbird

[jojo]

First, stop pretending you're only speaking of G onset

 

First of all I personally never claimed that the Mirage 2000 should be able to OVER G (i.e. exceed 9 G), instead I specifically asked wether the FCS was intrusive/powerful enough that it quite simply didn't allow this (even momentarily),

 

And you keep pushing this idea and turning around it from the beginning.

 

Secondly, yes G onset is currently too low.

 

BUT CptSmiley SAID HE IS AWARE OF THAT AND IT WILL BE WORKED ON.

Azrayen linked the post, and I did it too twice already.

 

Can we move on ?

[unknown]

...All I've been pointing out is the unrealistically low speed of G onset in the FM, that's it.

Yes we get it, but what is the point of complaining about one point of the new flight model from page 12 to page 20 in this thread again and again. From 21. Dec 2017 to today. Razbam stated on 03. Dec 2017, weeks before you started to complain about it, that your problem with the new FM is known and will be tuned! The link to CptSmiley's post was linked a couple of times for you here in the thread. So why going on and on and turning in a circle? We all know that Razbam is busy with the Harrier, the new FM update was the first major improvement/patch to the Mirage for months and there was no fixing/tuning patch for it except a minor one. So just wait for the next FM update, check the behavior of the Mirage and then you can complain that the problem wasn't fixed in that patch.