Mirage radar CONSTANTLY losing lock on low flying targets!!!

[Conroy]

The problem with M-2000C is that this is instantaneous.

 

Bingo.

 

I think you have perfectly got the problem we are talking about. It would be probably more than enough if we could have fixed at least this aspect.:thumbup:

[D4n]

They don't use proper Fox 1 tactics.

 

 

What would you say are "proper fox 1 tactics" ? :) Now I'm curious.

[myHelljumper]

What would you say are "proper fox 1 tactics" ? :) Now I'm curious.

 

Take a look here, #7 in particular.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3166760#post3166760

[jojo]

What would you say are "proper fox 1 tactics" ? :) Now I'm curious.

 

Keep the target in look up after firing and crank to avoid eating a fox 2 in the teeth after impact...

 

The F-Pole is fighter to target range at missile impact.

F-Pole may be interior to Fox 2 range depending on conditions.

Crank help to maximize F-pole.

 

I just posted a video on previous page...

[Zeus67]

Tbh I dont really know why everyone is still patronizing this.

 

Zeus confirmed himself waaaaay back that there is a bug with the antenna movement that only ED can fix.

 

The comment it was impossible to employ the mirage is an massive hyperbole as well, but loosing hot contact, non maneuvering, within 30nm against the sky pure hot is simply not correct either. :D

 

It will get fixed at some point I hope. :)

 

The bug is the in the antenna recovery speed when looking down. It is too slow for properly following a target that is evading. But this bug does not apply to STT mode, since the radar behaves differently in that mode.

[D4n]

Take a look here, #7 in particular.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3166760#post3166760

 

 

ah this one, ok

 

 

"- Crank as soon as you have fired you missile : you will reduce your closing speed and bleed the enemy missile energy. You might also want to go below your target so it won't be able to notch you. They key to win in BVR is to bleed the enemy's missile energy while supporting yours."

[D4n]

I just posted a video on previous page...

 

 

Ah on page 4 you mean, ok!

[Zeus67]

DCS doesn't simulate actual radar raycasts for air target detection. In DCS the radar just gets the enemy position from the game engine and checks if the target is inside of the radar parameters. If that is the case it will be shown on the radar display, otherwise it will not be displayed. I guess there is a raycast that checks for obstacles (like mountains) between the player and the target, but that's about it. It does not actually utilize raycasts to scan the area.

So, no, there aren't radar reflections from angeled surfaces.

 

Yes and no. Of course there are no raycasts, except to determine distance to the ground and to simulate ground clutter. But the DCS radar does simulate many workings of a real one.

 

For RWS and TWS, the DCS radar simulates an antenna search cone, which is quite narrow. In simple terms, the radar does "know" where all the other aircrafts are in relation to your own. But the radar algorithms filter out those who are not in the antenna search cone and keep in memory those who are not "seen" but were detected a few seconds ago.

 

All DCS aircraft also have parameters like RCS and then there are other algorithms to simulate notching and jamming. Factors that are used by the radar filtering algorithms in determining if the aircraft can be "seen". Terrain in the radar search cone is also interrogated in order to check if the angles in relation to the radar beam can create a "mask".

 

For STT, the DCS radar behaves differently. It no longer simulates antenna movement, which is why the bug does not affect it. It creates a search cone that is as big as the radar antenna mechanical limits allow. Of course, it clears all contacts except for the locked one, so it will be tracked for as long as it remains within the search cone. All other filtering parameters still work of course.

[D4n]

But "notching" afaik is just the act of making sudden manouvers, right? Which your target can also do when it's below you...

[Zeus67]

I've just been poking around to see what radar specific code exists in the module, and my first impression is "not much". From what I can see so far (an extremely quick look), the radar is declared and set a max range - then it has two competing definitions for a value named "radar_can_see_ground".

 

has_differential_stabilizer = false,
radar_can_see_ground        = false,
stores_number                = 9, ...

and...

 

--sensors
detection_range_max         = 120,
radar_can_see_ground      = true, -- this should be examined (what is this exactly?)

CanopyGeometry = {
azimuth  ...

Amusingly, the developer has also left in a note to confirm the functionality of the setting! :)

 

We also don't have a great deal to compare to either - unlike most DCS modules, the FC3 modules appear to be compiled down into dlls preventing trivial examination. I'm guessing though that what we'd find is that the module loader just hooks values such as detection range out of the dll or lua as appropriate and passes it to the engine to handle.

 

Having said all that, I've just realised that I've not seen any values relating to scan speed, max/min azimuth etc - but the module does set the radar type as "RDY", again pointing to this being defined and handled in ED code rather than RazBam's.

 

I'd reckon that a module doesn't have sufficient access to the required underlying data representing other aircraft around it to for a 3rd party to independently develop a radar model. With that in mind, I don't think there's a huge amount any 3rd party can do about any perceived sensitivity to notching - it's defined and settled a long way up the chain from them!

 

The

 radar_can_see_ground      = true, -- this should be examined (what is this exactly?) 

quote was not written by me but by somebody at ED. :D

It is a very old comment.

[D4n]

is "thesilverfalcons" a real pilot?

 

 

hmmmm Jojo problem is the video is in french and he didn't allow for YouTubers to add english subtitle... So I don't understand anything he says...

[D4n]

WHOA guys, nearly 1400 thread views in not even 48 hours!!! New record of DCS community dedication! :D Keep it up guys! :)

[Zeus67]

But "notching" afaik is just the act of making sudden manouvers, right? Which your target can also do when it's below you...

 

No. "notching", which is simulated, is the act of placing your aircraft perpendicular, that is at 90 degrees, to the radar beam. It plays against a weakness of pulse doppler radars.

 

PD radars can look down because they filter out anything that moves below a certain speed in relation to your aircraft. So the terrain is detected but is ignored because it moves too slow.

 

By notching, what you do is that for a few seconds your relative speed in relation to the enemy radar will be so low that it will filter you out. Yeah, it will reacquire you later but for a precious seconds it will lose you so you can evade its weapons or put yourself in a more advantageous position.

[jaguara5]

Short question Zeus : will the M2000 benefit from the new air to air radar code developed (for the F-18 ), as it will for air to ground?

[Zeus67]

Short question Zeus : will the M2000 benefit from the new air to air radar code developed (for the F-18 ), as it will for air to ground?

 

Yes. It will.

[QuiGon]

Yes and no. Of course there are no raycasts, except to determine distance to the ground and to simulate ground clutter. But the DCS radar does simulate many workings of a real one.

 

For RWS and TWS, the DCS radar simulates an antenna search cone, which is quite narrow. In simple terms, the radar does "know" where all the other aircrafts are in relation to your own. But the radar algorithms filter out those who are not in the antenna search cone and keep in memory those who are not "seen" but were detected a few seconds ago.

 

Thanks for clearifying!

That's what I meant when I said "In DCS the radar just gets the enemy position from the game engine and checks if the target is inside of the radar parameters." as the parameters are things like search cone, RCS, notching, jamming, etc.

[D4n]

PD radars can look down because they filter out anything that moves below a certain speed in relation to your aircraft. So the terrain is detected but is ignored because it moves too slow.

 

By notching, what you do is that for a few seconds your relative speed in relation to the enemy radar will be so low that it will filter you out. Yeah, it will reacquire you later but for a precious seconds it will lose you so you can evade its weapons or put yourself in a more advantageous position.

 

 

I thought the computer behind fighter radars will calculate all the signals from the radar and make out that the object in the middle of this image is a target (the F-18, as the radar waves need less time reflecting from this F-18 than from the surrounding landscape) is an aircraft/target... (black is radar scanning area, white the sky, green the landscape)

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by DanielNL

[QuiGon]

How does it know it is an aircraft? It could just be a mountain or a tall tower. So the doppler radar checks for closing rate, if it is different to the environment.

[D4n]

Of course there is also an area "below" the target that the radar will measure the same distance to, but the F-18 in this case is a smaller target and the area "below" the F-18 is a very wide area...

[QuiGon]

Of course there is also an area "below" the target that the radar will measure the same distance to, but the F-18 in this case is a smaller target and the area "below" the F-18 is a very wide area...

 

It's not that easy. Check this video:

 

[D4n]

How does it know it is an aircraft? It could just be a mountain or a tall tower. So the doppler radar checks for closing rate, if it is different to the environment.

 

I'd assume it knows it by the shape of the target in relation to the surrounding (yes, the targeting computer needs to run some comparison-algorithms... for example "IF the small object is seperated from the surface below it, it is a flying object") :P )

[myHelljumper]

It does not work that way.

 

Pulse doppler radar work by using the doppler effect to compare detected object speed with plane ground speed.

[D4n]

Why don't they do it the way I described?

Edited December 20, 2017 by DanielNL

[jojo]

Why don't they do I the way I described?

 

Target shape = imagery = it requires huge computing power (your current smartphone is probably more powerful)

Small RCS compares to background = it can be anything, tower, chaff..

 

There are a lot things available on the web about look down radar. If you don't believe us, you can search by yourself.

[Bacab]

Target shape = imagery = it requires huge computing power (your current smartphone is probably more powerful)

Small RCS compares to background = it can be anything, tower, chaff..

 

There are a lot things available on the web about look down radar. If you don't believe us, you can search by yourself.

It's not only a problem of computing power, it's also a problem of resolution. In order to recognize a target by its shape the radar would need a resolution in the order of a few meters, something no airborne radar can do (yet) on an aerial, moving target.