Comments from an Eagle pilot

[Stubbins]

IPW-31 it's the thing located in place where in LO we have "MFD". But in RL it is not Multi Function Display, just as Kush said.

 

This was written by the guy in the middle of this photo, who is the "uncle" of our small Polish community. Do we have to prove that he is a fighter pilot? :)

 

 

Some1,

 

No, you don't have to prove he's a fighter pilot. But if you could email the number of that blond in back, I'd appreciate it. :music_whistling: And who's that beside her? Stephen Colbert?

 

Stubs

[Maximus_G]

It is obvious also that the flight model of the F-15 is underpowered, compared to known data (climb speed, cruising alt, etc.).

 

Would you guys please provide the links to that data here?

I want to make that obvious for me too.

[D-Scythe]

It's all here: http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=15815&page=7&highlight=F-15+climb

 

Anyway you look at it, the F-15 seems to be underpowered - by over 10%.

[Reaper-6]

 

Have a look Knuckle Heads...

[SUBS17]

I wonder what this Eagle-Flanker encounter should be. Who is operating Flankers close to Saudi Arabia, Isreal or Japan ? Only Russia, China and Ethiopia, right ? Or does Syria has Sues too ?

 

 

And I wonder what is wrong about the A-10, that thing performs great. Perhaps even too great, after having flown the AFM Su-25 I quit using the A-10 because it feels like cheating :)

 

2x F-15Cs from Israel shot down 2x SU27s from Syria that were trying to intercept a EW aircraft on the border with Lebanon. They used IR missiles, fight was over pretty quick.

[SUBS17]

Use reduced G's. They are more realistic.

It is my understanding that the record for sustaining 9G's without G-Loc is 110sec at this point (mind you this is a *record*). I was led to believe that sustaining 30sec of 9G at a time is reasonable.

 

As for the MiG and Flanker - the 'pilot model' is the same in terms of sustaining G's, but those aircraft like slower, lower-G dogfights. That's why. The way to fight an Eagle is 350-450kts at 6g+ loading. You -cannot- do this in LO because of the 'pilot model' and because everyone thinks that 'realistic g' is realistic. And it is!

For some drunk guy off the street who's not practicing AGSM, has NO training, and isn't wearing a G-suit.

 

ED's G-model is 'generally good', in that if you were to graph it it would likely resemble reality ... it just resembles reality for the WRONG PERSON. THe values need to be shifted up to make it realistic.

 

Yeah people can handle much higher g even without a gsuit IRL such as aerobatic pilots etc. G is probably the hardest thing for a sim to model but reduced g seems pretty good for me on LO.

[D-Scythe]

They weren't Flankers.

[CrazyAggie05]

Wow this thread has turned into a useless pile of crap. I am only going to say one thing. Make that two.

 

First, the reason why it is so hard to model a US aircraft is because we classify so much data it is nuts. I promise you that any data you get on any modern US fighter is not entirely accurate... its more of a best guesstimate. We don't want everyone to know our capabilities, that is how you stay on top of the game. Things like climb rates and other performance data information is highly valuable to an attacker, and we want to keep people guessing. Then you have the whole avionics and weapons side of things. Shoot, my Viper driver friends don't even know all there is to know about the 16. SO, we can't expect to get all the right info we need to have a no kiddin realistic Eagle or anything else for that matter. As far as the Russian birds, I don't know how uptight or relaxed they are with their information, BUT with the proliferation of Russian military hardware, I am sure that the data for their aircraft is much easier to come across. I have sat here for years listening to people bicker about unrealistic this or poorly modeled that and a few times I have seen the topic of not enough data popping up. Well, here is why ED doesn't have that data. That being said, this is problem number one amongst many when it comes to modeling the Eagle correctly.

 

Secondly, who knows if the other gentleman is a real pilot or not. If he is, well than welcome to the forums Sir. If not well then shame on him, and oh by the way, impersonating an officer is no bueno!

[CrazyAggie05]

As far as pulling g's, a g-suit only gives you about 1.5 g's more tolerance. It is mostly about the g-strain exercises. The seat in the F-16 is reclined more that any other fighter to help the pilot cope with g-forces as well. There is also a newer anti-g system that does some other things to boot. BUt all in all, it comes down to flexing from your toes to your abs and breathing right. IT actually works pretty damn good. On my first flight we did a 5.5 g turn and I didn't expect it. I forgot to strain in the excitment of the moment and things started to go dim. However as soon and I did the proper strain, everything came right back :)

[SwingKid]

Would you guys please provide the links to that data here?

I want to make that obvious for me too.

 

Try this at home:

 

http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/~pavacic/lomac/f15tth01.jpg

http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/~pavacic/lomac/f15tth02.jpg

 

-SK

[SUBS17]

They weren't Flankers.

:doh: Mig29s

[Maximus_G]

Try this at home:

 

http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/~pavacic/lomac/f15tth01.jpg

http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/~pavacic/lomac/f15tth02.jpg

 

-SK

 

Guess i can't, i just don't have Streak Eagle* in the game...

 

---

* One stripped and unpainted F-15A, demonstrated the fighter’s acceleration – broke eight time-to-climb world records between Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975.

[Maximus_G]

It's all here: http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=15815&page=7&highlight=F-15+climb

 

Anyway you look at it, the F-15 seems to be underpowered - by over 10%.

 

Thanks!

[SwingKid]

Guess i can't, i just don't have Streak Eagle* in the game...

 

---

* One stripped and unpainted F-15A, demonstrated the fighter’s acceleration – broke eight time-to-climb world records between Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975.

 

Just reduce the fuel load until it matches the quoted Streak Eagle weight - you don't need the extra fuel for landing.

 

Or, in Vladivostok, 100 kg of fuel weighs more than 100 kg of paint? :P

 

-SK

[Maximus_G]

Just reduce the fuel load until it matches the quoted Streak Eagle weight - you don't need the extra fuel for landing.

 

Or, in Vladivostok, 100 kg of fuel weighs more than 100 kg of paint? :P

 

-SK

That's so kind of you.

100 kg of paint on the plane produces significantly more drag. At least on our planet.

That's not speaking of structural changes involving hatches, missile racks and so on.

[ericinexile]

I'm sure this has been said but I couldn't stomach reading every post on this thread:

 

There is very little chance that a F15C driver would describe the game in that manner. It was just another player disenchanted with the way the F15 has been hamstrung against the RU fighters in the game. It worked...

 

Smokin' Hole

[SwingKid]

That's so kind of you.

100 kg of paint on the plane produces significantly more drag. At least on our planet.

That's not speaking of structural changes involving hatches, missile racks and so on.

 

Define "significant" numerically, please.

10,000 extra pounds of drag? One million? One billion?

 

If you don't want the answer, then you waste my time asking the question.

 

We all know that 100 kg of fuel purchased in Russia, weighs 90 kg when it arrives in Germany,

 

and only the P-42 needed new "hatches."

 

Amount of paint removed from Streak Eagle was 40 pounds.

 

-SK

[Yo-Yo]

The problem I realy have with the eagle is the g-loc. I was out pulling 6.5 g's sustained the other day (in real life not the game) and I can handle that just fine. The E modle pilot I was flying with was telling me that pulling a few more is no big deal once you are used to it, and you aren't pulling more than what we were doing for very long. You are only going to pull 8-9 g's for a few seconds. In the LO Ealge, you black out so easy. My vision doesnt even fade at 6.5 sustained in the T-38. In the LO Eagle 5 g's is about all you can take. It seems like the 27 and Mig are different.

 

The g-model for a pilot is THE SAME for all planes. The REALISTIC mode of g-model (see Difficulty settings) was tuned after long investigations amongst the MiG and Su actual pilots and several aero-medical reports was taken in account, too.

Only for information.

The basic parameters of g-lock are the sustained value of g in conjunction with dg/dt derivative. If you smoothly achieve 6.5 g you can bear it for a long time. 5 g has more longer time or maybe (I don't remember exactly) to eternity.

[3Sqn_Fudd]

Does any of this add to our enjoyment of the game? This incessant fighting about realism? :D

 

Let's develope a plan to simply borrow some F-15's and Su-27's and we'll have Pilotasso and Mustang fight it out over Luxembourg. I think this is entirely doable... The pen is mightier than the sword fellas... Lets write some letters... anyone know Putin? I could probably ask Bush... My brother in law has TONS of connections in northwest Potter county Texas.

 

Looks like Pilotasso will have to do some in-flight refueling over the Baltic and Germany but we'll get you a couple days off so you can rest....

 

Pilotasso starts over Wiltz in a F-15, Mustang over Esch with a Su-27... Self destructing missles... They'll both be back in time for tea.

 

Im all for it.... Can't wait for their after action reports

[GGTharos]

They also removed the flaps.

In any case, I know at least one USAF pilot who is of the opinion that the F-15 is underpowered at altitude.

 

Define "significant" numerically, please.

10,000 extra pounds of drag? One million? One billion?

 

If you don't want the answer, then you waste my time asking the question.

 

We all know that 100 kg of fuel purchased in Russia, weighs 90 kg when it arrives in Germany,

 

and only the P-42 needed new "hatches."

 

Amount of paint removed from Streak Eagle was 40 pounds.

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

I think however, Yo-Yo, that the realistic g-model is too unforgiving. For a combat pilot, it is much harder to black out (as least, so I am told by a combat pilot!)

I think the model is great, but the values need serious tweaking. The way the model is now, you -cannot- fight in an F-15 like they fight it in RL (which is at high G). Also this model does not take a spiky stick into account; it blacks you out the moment you go from 5 to 7 G after a good pull, which I understand is also not right (where's the 6 second buffer?).

 

Here is /a/ source for this: http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/NAMI/aeromedbriefs/GTIP.ppt

This is a navy (I think Navy, might be USAF) presentation on increasing G-Tolerance.

Please look especially at slides 43-48, and for the buffer, slide 22.

If you need translation or explanation/interpretation, I'll be quite happy to help.

 

Most importantly, I don't think you can black out so easily as you do in LO just because you pulled 9G a short time ago.

 

Remember, a pilot /always/ know when he's going to pull on the stick and increase G's, so he knows when to strain, and that changes how the onset works, as does the G-suit! Practice also increases your tolerance! Pulling G's before combat *INCREASES* not *DECREASES* your G tolerance according to this.

 

I hope you guys look into this, because the way it is now is not tolerable!

 

The g-model for a pilot is THE SAME for all planes. The REALISTIC mode of g-model (see Difficulty settings) was tuned after long investigations amongst the MiG and Su actual pilots and several aero-medical reports was taken in account, too.

Only for information.

The basic parameters of g-lock are the sustained value of g in conjunction with dg/dt derivative. If you smoothly achieve 6.5 g you can bear it for a long time. 5 g has more longer time or maybe (I don't remember exactly) to eternity.

[CrazyAggie05]

Remember, a pilot /always/ know when he's going to pull on the stick and increase G's, so he knows when to strain, and that changes how the onset works, as does the G-suit! Practice also increases your tolerance! Pulling G's before combat *INCREASES* not *DECREASES* your G tolerance according to this.

 

Right on man. We always do a few g-exercise turns to get warmed up. It REALLY helps get the blood flowing. If they got the g-model from real Su and Mig pilots, then those guys really need some help. Actually, let them keep things like that b/c I will be turning circles around them in the sky :) as far as onset, sure you don't want to go to 8 g's instantaneously (which is easily done thse days) but in LO oyu have to tkae 15 freakin seconds to go from 0-8.

[Cosmonaut]

Also this model does not take a spiky stick into account; it blacks you out the moment you go from 5 to 7 G after a good pull,..

 

I think this is one of the biggest reason why the G effect doesn't work when put into practice. IRL the G loads you'd feel while at Mach 1+ would prevent you from jerking the stick or pulling too hard as you initially started a hard turn and I would assume the FBW (or similar systems) would adjust the amount of stick movement required to make a turn. In LO however the calibration at speed makes it all too easy to pile on the G's loads as soon as you start to bank. It would be great if it was calibrated in such away that the faster you go the more you need pull back to enter a turn. I know this is already implemented to a certain degree but maybe it just need turning up a little or even make it user defined so we can adjust ourselves.

[MBot]

I think this is one of the biggest reason why the G effect doesn't work when put into practice. IRL the G loads you'd feel while at Mach 1+ would prevent you from jerking the stick or pulling too hard as you initially started a hard turn and I would assume the FBW (or similar systems) would adjust the amount of stick movement required to make a turn. In LO however the calibration at speed makes it all too easy to pile on the G's loads as soon as you start to bank. It would be great if it was calibrated in such away that the faster you go the more you need pull back to enter a turn. I know this is already implemented to a certain degree but maybe it just need turning up a little or even make it user defined so we can adjust ourselves.

 

What I realy would love to see is a FFB model that simulates stickforces. So when you fly fast you still have the full stick motion range at hand, it just needs more force. Or you can do correct trimming by holding the right attitude and simply trimm away any stickforces ( oposed to "flying the trim" we have in sims ). But I haven't yet heard about a sim that uses Force Feedback to actualy simulates realistic stickforces.

Would be a real reason for me to buy a FFB stick.

[S77th-GOYA]

What is the combined thrust of the 15's engines at full military? I've seen a source quote it at 32,000 lbs. Anyone have a different figure?