Eagle Vs Flanker

[Frostie]

I understand your point ,but the statistics can't be used to back this up as the one glaring statistic that stands out for me is Mig29s has killed more Mig29s than anything else ,that tells me more people fly Mig29s than anything else so is bound to have a higher kill score.

[GGTharos]

Yep, lies, damned lies and statistics; the 29 is however too capable for its own good, through no fault of its own - a lot of stuff contributes ... porked missiles, radar model, blabla.

 

Eventually this stuff will become more and more complex and then we'll probably see a more realistic picture of all this.

[Aeroscout]

Wait, What's the '29's kill ratio? I have some book (copy write 2004, so it's out dated) that says it has a 0:12 kill ratio. Is that still the case today?

 

As for the F-15C beeing dominant? yes, i can definitaly see that being the case. But again, it's a russian game and the developers are obviousally going to favor their own aircraft.

[UWBuRn]

IMHO the fulcrum has thoose scores also because is VERY difficoult to spot in WVR combat. Combine it with the fact that BVR in lock on almost always degrades in WVR and you should have the reasons of thoose results...

 

BTW

Voted for both. For me the Flanker has it's own strong points (and i love the way it handles and the way it looks :D) but the Eagle generally performs better: in complicated enviroment both F-15 radar and rwr perform better for my taste, 27's ones degrade SA; also russian datalink isn't always that reilable for what i've seen, with low flying bandits often it loses contact.

 

OT

29's radar is ridiculous, i often managed to shoot an ER at a fulcrum even before it was able to see me... :D

[Pilotasso]

Think the migs kill ratio is unrealistic?

http://www.syn-ack.com/vvs504/stats/vvs504-weapons.shtml

:music_whistling:

[rogue_blade]

I just bugs me how the SU27 and 33 can overturn their velocity vector to such extremes. The f15 cant do that but it definitely feels more aeronautically natural to fly with thrust preventing you from overturning yourself that much. plus the loss in speed with those 27 and 33 turns turns you into ford pinto

 

another thing that bugs me is the design of the front of russian cockpits. they seem to take up so much more space compared to f15's and 16's. its like they gotta look over their dashboard (not called a dashboard haha) to see whats in front of them.

 

I also feel more 'professional' being able to use the f15 nav system rather than the russains visual nav system that gives you an easy visual display of way point lines to follow. :D

I also notice the the TEWS in the f15 provides more information that the Russians EW systems and also updates the information faster. then again if u can use the EW system well thats highly respectable because its tough.

 

without any sort of tutorials or long learning sessions it was easy to learn to read the HUD of the f15 and what meant what. Russian aircraft of the other hand....i had to open the manual haha.....

 

im unsure what people mean when they say its hard to read the dials and such in the f15. upon turning down my resolution i realized what people are talking about. but i play in 1920x1200 soo its pretty crisp for me :P

 

thats my 2 pennies

[Cosmonaut]

Wait, What's the '29's kill ratio? I have some book (copy write 2004, so it's out dated) that says it has a 0:12 kill ratio. Is that still the case today?

 

Its probably worse than that :smilewink: but those stats aren't really applicable to LO seeing as they never carried the R77.. I could be wrong but I think their best (longest range) weapon was the R-27R and how many times did they even fire them.

 

I think the Mig's success has more to do with the R-77 rather the than Mig itself. At least the stats show ARH hitting more than any other missile except of course the R-27ET and the ET stands for Extra Terrestrial. That missile is really patch specific though, I remember when the ET wouldn't an Awacs even if fired at point blank range with the sun behind you .. hopefully BS will clear up the ET phenomena and bring its stats back down to Earth.

[rogue_blade]

I just bugs me how the SU27 and 33 can overturn their velocity vector to such extremes. The f15 cant do that but it definitely feels more aeronautically natural to fly with thrust preventing you from overturning yourself that much. plus the loss in speed with those 27 and 33 turns turns you into ford pinto

 

another thing that bugs me is the design of the front of russian cockpits. they seem to take up so much more space compared to f15's and 16's. its like they gotta look over their dashboard (not called a dashboard haha) to see whats in front of them.

 

I also feel more 'professional' being able to use the f15 nav system rather than the russains visual nav system that gives you an easy visual display of way point lines to follow. :D

I also notice the the TEWS in the f15 provides more information that the Russians EW systems and also updates the information faster. then again if u can use the EW system well thats highly respectable because its tough.

 

without any sort of tutorials or long learning sessions it was easy to learn to read the HUD of the f15 and what meant what. Russian aircraft of the other hand....i had to open the manual haha.....

 

im unsure what people mean when they say its hard to read the dials and such in the f15. upon turning down my resolution i realized what people are talking about. but i play in 1920x1200 soo its pretty crisp for me :P

 

must add russian helmets really look retarded haha compared to western world helmets :)

 

thats my 2 pennies

 

arg srry for repost...screwed up edit button clickage

[Kula66]

The philosophies are some what balanced in real life. In lockon the Russian philosophy has been modeled. The F15 has not.

 

My 2 cents.

 

I don't think its a question of the philosophies being modelled, but that the problems with missile FM in general, AMRAAM seeker and TWS mode, plus the missing radar modes and poor power mean that you haven't got a plane that can fill that philosophy - as it was deisnged to do.

 

When online I fly as in the Eagle was deisnged to in RL - 40k' with radar on ... usually fairly successful ... but multi-target engagement now doesn't work and return shots from Mig ETs at 100' can get you while your shot from 40' just goes dumb ... and wall-to-wall jamming with IFF porked.

 

Lets hope one day it gets fixed ... at the memoment its often an exercise in frustration :(

[NAEMNIK]

SU-27

[GGTharos]

I don't think its a question of the philosophies being modelled, but that the problems with missile FM in general, AMRAAM seeker and TWS mode, plus the missing radar modes and poor power mean that you haven't got a plane that can fill that philosophy - as it was deisnged to do.

 

I believe once maddogging ability is curbed, you'll see less success from the miglets launching and running. Right now the scan pattern of ARHs is too wide. Here you'll start seeing the wonders of TWS - just a guess on my part.

 

When online I fly as in the Eagle was deisnged to in RL - 40k' with radar on ... usually fairly successful ... but multi-target engagement now doesn't work and return shots from Mig ETs at 100' can get you while your shot from 40' just goes dumb ... and wall-to-wall jamming with IFF porked.

 

Lets hope one day it gets fixed ... at the memoment its often an exercise in frustration :(

 

Yep. It'll be looked at. In BS, at least, we're getting a 120 that is *much* harder to spoof.

[SVK_Fox]

I hope that amraam will not be unrealistic best

[GGTharos]

It will force you to defend yourself instead of just flying straight ahead and dropping chaff. Other than that, there's no difference from the one we have right now.

[Frostie]

Look at the 29 vs 15/27 and 33, the 29 killed more of them everytime.

 

Thats exactly why I said you can't use the stats as proof ,it proves nothing conclusive.

Take a look at F15 v F15 (52 as now) compared to 29s v 29s (663) more Migs per game on both sides. So they're is bound to be a hell of a lot more Mig kills than F15. Especially when F15s are outnumbered. But this is inconclusive.:doh:

Fact is everyones auntie knows the Mig is the easiest jet to get kills in and the stats don't tell me that. Unrealistic for sure.

[44th Eagle]

I don't think its a question of the philosophies being modeled,:(

 

 

Sure it is...at this moment most of the red bird capabilities are modeled; yes they have some issues as well. However they can still perform with in their designed strengths, thus with in there tactical arena. The red fighter philosophy has be achieved.

 

On the other hand the F15c strengths are not properly modeled at this time. To use the 15 as anything other then a BVR fighter is taking it out of its strongest arena thus not allowing it to perform with in its tactical strength. This means the philosophy; the thinking of its tactical role is in question.

 

Yes you can say the missiles; radar, thrust to weight ratio, and etc. are the issue. Yes they are an issue but I think it goes deeper and I’m saying they are the results of my theory. I not trying to throw stones at ED…I’m just saying that ED didn’t model a realistic arena for the F15c and it’s based on not achieving the required philosophy for what ever reason that might be.

[44th Eagle]

Thats exactly why I said you can't use the stats as proof ,it proves nothing conclusive.

Take a look at F15 v F15 (52 as now) compared to 29s v 29s (663) more Migs per game on both sides. So they're is bound to be a hell of a lot more Mig kills than F15. Especially when F15s are outnumbered. But this is inconclusive.:doh:

Fact is everyones auntie knows the Mig is the easiest jet to get kills in and the stats don't tell me that. Unrealistic for sure.

 

 

However it does say that the airframe with the weakest radar has the most victorys. I also believe it shows Mig29s vs F15...in which case the F15 is the Migs bitch.

[Frostie]

What im trying to say is that the stats can be viewed in a number of ways to prove everthing right and everything wrong ,it just causes a number crunching sensation where a head usually dissappear up ones ass and then I get a headache ,turn green and start removing great wedges of hair from my noggin.

You can start weighing up how many solo F15 pilots compared to teamed up Russki planes there are on the server or maybe just more people on Red in Migs flying against less blues in less F15s.

How many noobs fly F15 because they can't understand the Russian planes?:D And how many people spam ET's.

 

Also how many chaps can use their F15 radar effectively to snoop out those low flying ,valley dwelling Migs?

[GGTharos]

Ah, but Frost1e, it does paint an overall picture. Yes, the stats are not 'proof' per se, as presented, but you could easily pick out stats for 'good pilots', add'em up, and presto. They are certainly available on the 504's stats pages. It just takes a little more work.

 

I bet this will paint a similar picture, don't you think?

 

The stats as presented in this thread, I agree, are a starting point only. And that's my professional, mathematicians opinion ;)

[Frostie]

Thats true but it is a deeper investigation , as it is presented here it is a shrouded veil.

[Pilotasso]

Yes, 504 stats are very handy because they are the only ones who keep a long term record. Before it was reseted this christmas it was pretty much the same as it is now on kill ratio. When the first bunch of people get over 100 kills or so it starts to draw a similar picture statisticaly speaking.

 

My personal impressions says that its is how ET works but at least 50% of the fault also lies on players tactics. I start not believeing its the games specific flaws in terrain and altitude masking, because you still get the advantage high up if you know what your doing, but rather that people also preffer simpler effortless tactics over more complete and elaborate ones. I see many head to head engagements at low altitude and despite the game changed alot from 1.0 (even when the AMRAAM's would get ya 20-nill kill ratios) to 1.12a its still being donne to this day. Even if ED made WAFM and AFM for all planes and missiles it would still cause players to do the same things. The differences would then be mainly what the missiles they would choose for BVR combat. Probably they would swich from the ET to the ER but they would still fly the same way.

 

I got some comments from instructors that sometimes a long date SIMer is harder to teach than somene who has never steped on a plane before because of their deeply rooted routined habits.

[TucksonSonny]

What im trying to say is that the stats can be viewed in a number of ways to prove everthing right and everything wrong ,it just causes a number crunching sensation where a head usually dissappear up ones ass and then I get a headache ,turn green and start removing great wedges of hair from my noggin.

You can start weighing up how many solo F15 pilots compared to teamed up Russki planes there are on the server or maybe just more people on Red in Migs flying against less blues in less F15s.

How many noobs fly F15 because they can't understand the Russian planes?:D And how many people spam ET's.

 

Also how many chaps can use their F15 radar effectively to snoop out those low flying ,valley dwelling Migs?

 

I think you have no point because during the last 2 years about all servers are setting up online missions with mixed Red/Blue teams with mixed US/Rus ships.

In a Russki you even don’t know in BVR if you have to deal with a Sukoi or an eagle! ;)

[GGTharos]

Ah, and I'd like to add; the reasons mentioned - ET spamming, ARH spamming (on both sides) and the lack of necessary radar discrepancy is basically contributing to the overall problem of *realistically* simulating the F-15C.

 

HOWEVER, I'll grant that if the F-15C was realistically simulated, we'd be seeing screaming from one side that the other is overpowered, though this isn't necessarily the case - tactics are not easy things to work out.

[Frostie]

I think you have no point because during the last 2 years about all servers are setting up online missions with mixed Red/Blue teams with mixed US/Rus ships.

 

In a Russki you even don’t know in BVR if you have to deal with a Sukoi or an eagle! ;)

Thats fair enough its only my opinion im not going to argue with you, not least because I havent a clue what your talking about.:D

[Kula66]

Remember they dumbed down the 120 for "game balance" but we don't need to open that can of worms.

 

I'd guess the 120 and 77 were modelled the same for simplicty and lack of solid info ('cos its all classified) - so one model or ARH missile.

[GGTharos]

Yes, but the 120's legs were cut down severely. This allows for more chances to spoof, and better ability to dodge the missile kinematically. Due to the way the missile scripting works, the AMRAAM is fairly disadvantaged - though it DOES certainly work.