R-27T

[DarkFire]

A slightly tangential question: does DCS simulate aerodynamic airframe heating?

[Vatikus]

Its quite obvious from that video the burn time is >6 seconds. Closer to 10 infact. So either the 6s burn time is incorrect for the T or the missile in that video is an ET, which seems very unlikely.

From the mig29 9.13 manual, the 27E(x) rocket burn time is specified as: 8,6-11 seconds.

 

And when we look at the section of how to use them... the limitation of how to fire T/ET, it is noted that pilot should not launch a followup missile before 8s for ET and 6s for T, to avoid lock on the rocket engine. This information should help resolving the myth of which missile should been fired first ;)

 

What might be also interesting is that ET has 2 seekers, a cooled one and uncooled. The uncooled is activated when cooling gas runs out. With uncooled seeker lock is only possible in the rear hemisphere.

 

I really doubt that the real Su-27S has this capability you describe. It just sounds so out of whack. Certain things like terminal SARH guidance requires faster updates and stronger signals and it can't be achieved via command guidance I believe

 

While the same manual says that SUV-29 wcs does not support this, the 27ER missile has this feature. It describes it as follows... 27ER is designed to work with halved PRF, which allows simultaneous deployment of two missiles on two targets.

 

An interesting info is also that 27ER missile can tolarate breaks in illumination of 20-30% of the remaining time to intercept before being trashed.

 

Last but not least, the way the INS updating is performed, if launching a/c exceeds angular speed of 60deg/s, it is not guaranteed that missile receives correct data. Manual notes that this can happen if pilot is performing barreling maneuvers for evading missiles.

 

 

Cheers..

[Drona]

While the same manual says that SUV-29 wcs does not support this, the 27ER missile has this feature. It describes it as follows... 27ER is designed to work with halved PRF, which allows simultaneous deployment of two missiles on two targets.

 

An interesting info is also that 27ER missile can tolarate breaks in illumination of 20-30% of the remaining time to intercept before being trashed.

 

Last but not least, the way the INS updating is performed, if launching a/c exceeds angular speed of 60deg/s, it is not guaranteed that missile receives correct data. Manual notes that this can happen if pilot is performing barreling maneuvers for evading missiles.

 

 

Cheers..

 

 

First of all, great info, really interesting to know this stuff, but the question is, does the Su-27S version have the radar capability to launch 2 ERs to 2 targets?

[GGTharos]

Show me a frame where you can guarantee that what you're seeing is an R-27T and not ET - that is, a frame without any blur or distortion and then this might somehow stack-up vs. official publications.

 

Its not an assumption. You can directly see its about 9 or 10 seconds burn and thats its almost certainly a T because of the shape of it and the fact the yemenis never had ETs.

Edited March 26, 2018 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

What might be also interesting is that ET has 2 seekers, a cooled one and uncooled. The uncooled is activated when cooling gas runs out. With uncooled seeker lock is only possible in the rear hemisphere.

 

This sounds like a misinterpretation Vatikus - it isn't two seekers, just a mode of operation of the same seeker. You're probably looking at the fact that it is a two-color seeker: when not cooled it can only deal with a certain part of the IR spectrum (which is what makes rear-only aspect seekers).

 

Just my guess.

 

An interesting info is also that 27ER missile can tolarate breaks in illumination of 20-30% of the remaining time to intercept before being trashed.

 

Sounds just a little hokey - the maximum operation time is a guaranteed 60 seconds ... 20% is 12 sec. Even if the missile can 'tolerate' this, what's the SUV-29 doing in this time? :)

 

If the remaining time is ~4 sec, then we've got the memory feature already working in-game :)

 

Last but not least, the way the INS updating is performed, if launching a/c exceeds angular speed of 60deg/s, it is not guaranteed that missile receives correct data. Manual notes that this can happen if pilot is performing barreling maneuvers for evading missiles.

 

Strangest thing ever!

 

Thanks for the info :D

[Ragnarok]

Show me a frame where you can guarantee that what you're seeing is an R-27T and not ET - that is, a frame without any blur or distortion and then this might somehow stack-up vs. official publications.

 

Ten seconds or not, it's important to hunt mice. :D

 

here's the evidence, huts were launched with included labels

Edited March 26, 2018 by Ragnarok

[Schmidtfire]

One thing that kind of hit me now is the max range of ER /ET. We are talking 130km for the ER and 120km for the ET (supposedly)

 

Aim-54A Phoenix max range is 135km.

 

Doesn't that seem a bit strange? Sure that they are guided by different radars, have different flight profiles, lofting, different drag etc. and R-33 should be a closer match for the Phoenix.

 

But in theory the old Phoenix A and R-27ER should have about the same max-range. Will be intresting to compare the two when we get the Tomcat and launch under similar conditions.

[Vatikus]

First of all, great info, really interesting to know this stuff, but the question is, does the Su-27S version have the radar capability to launch 2 ERs to 2 targets?

I do not know Kunz with which version of Su27 this is implemented. I have only manuals with such details on weapon systems for Mig planes.

 

This sounds like a misinterpretation Vatikus - it isn't two seekers, just a mode of operation of the same seeker. You're probably looking at the fact that it is a two-color seeker: when not cooled it can only deal with a certain part of the IR spectrum (which is what makes rear-only aspect seekers).

Just my guess.

Seeker might be too general, yes.. literal translation is that it has 2 photodetectors, one cooled, other not. It points that there is switch between the two when gas runs out.

 

Strangest thing ever!

I think the problem rises because of the update rate commands being sent.
Edited March 26, 2018 by Vatikus

[GGTharos]

One thing that kind of hit me now is the max range of ER /ET. We are talking 130km for the ER and 120km for the ET (supposedly)

 

... under some very extreme circumstances which aren't even listed in the employment manual IIRC. Even against an SR-71 the Rmax is considered to be 90km.

 

Aim-54A Phoenix max range is 135km.

 

... but it actually has a recorded 142nm hit, IIRC. Again, extreme circumstances.

 

But in theory the old Phoenix A and R-27ER should have about the same max-range. Will be intresting to compare the two when we get the Tomcat and launch under similar conditions.

 

They don't ... The R-27ER is limited to 60 sec of operating power. The AIM-54 has a guaranteed 160 seconds and a motor that burns 3 times as long.

[Vatikus]

[Vatikus]

Ten seconds or not, it's important to hunt mice. :D

here's the evidence, huts were launched with included labels

:D

the missile in video is ET version as was established above by burn time and you can also confirm by the missile proportions and features.

[Fri13]

First of all, great info, really interesting to know this stuff, but the question is, does the Su-27S version have the radar capability to launch 2 ERs to 2 targets?

No. Not the Su-27S but upgraded version.

Our Su-27S is seriously handicapped what it was designed to do but features was pushed to upgraded version.

 

 

 

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[Ragnarok]

maybe :thumbup:

[Fri13]

From the mig29 9.13 manual, the 27E(x) rocket burn time is specified as: 8,6-11 seconds.

 

And when we look at the section of how to use them... the limitation of how to fire T/ET, it is noted that pilot should not launch a followup missile before 8s for ET and 6s for T, to avoid lock on the rocket engine. This information should help resolving the myth of which missile should been fired first

 

That is one reason why you launch T first and then R as the T had change to lock in R signature front of you (meaning, seeker can be unlocked before launching for long range). But you can go R first as you can turn radar off meanwhile waiting to launch T and then wait to lock target with radar before R seeker goes active. Then you have R going first in intercept point silently, T following target and R forces to defensive.

 

What might be also interesting is that ET has 2 seekers, a cooled one and uncooled. The uncooled is activated when cooling gas runs out. With uncooled seeker lock is only possible in the rear hemisphere.

 

I believe it is same seeker but just different sensitivity and warmup times. Need to remember ask that about.

 

While the same manual says that SUV-29 wcs does not support this, the 27ER missile has this feature. It describes it as follows... 27ER is designed to work with halved PRF, which allows simultaneous deployment of two missiles on two targets.

 

Yes, IIRC it was Su-27M that supported that feature and not our Su-27S nor export Su-27SK.

But it has limitations like target separation so the radar can be switching targets in good time. And maneuvering target is a no go really as targeting gate doesn't keep up as less than half the time is spent to build track. IIRC/IIUC the distance separation was as well benefit. It is really meant for bombers like TWS too. And the later variants got capability for four targets with R-27.

 

An interesting info is also that 27ER missile can tolarate breaks in illumination of 20-30% of the remaining time to intercept before being trashed.

 

That is interesting percentage value, as what I know is that is distance when radar must be locked on target, before that radar can be kept just in search mode without alerting target from a lock. So lets say you have intercept time 14 seconds meaning 3-4 seconds before intercept you need to lock target, if target has not started to maneuver before that for some reason and you need to maximize guidance accuracy.

 

You really need to get and keep target locked in terminal phase. Of course even if you don't have a lock but missile does fly near, then it is likely a kill as missile still does fly too previous known point trying to detect target there.

 

Last but not least, the way the INS updating is performed, if launching a/c exceeds angular speed of 60deg/s, it is not guaranteed that missile receives correct data. Manual notes that this can happen if pilot is performing barreling maneuvers for evading missiles.

 

Cheers..[/Quote]60 degree per second is a very fast one. Something you do really in a dog fight trying to lose chaser. But maneuver quickly while scanning would as well be fairly special case. But wasn't that more about a radar limitation for accuracy in such fast moves and limitation of computing speed to detect when target was known instead new as computer can't anymore keep a track where target should appear when detected again. Meaning avoid fast maneuvering when you are operating with radar.

IIRC if you are handed the targeting data over other means via data link, then you should be free to maneuver quickly.

 

 

 

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

Edited March 27, 2018 by Fri13

[*Rage*]

:D

the missile in video is ET version as was established above by burn time and you can also confirm by the missile proportions and features.

 

Convincing!

[Frostie]

Convincing!

 

Nope, the pink circle is not at the correct orientation. :D

[Weta43]

I'm 99% sure you're joking, but just in case: 3 pairs of equal length lines (Green lines are the same length as the dark blue, red is the same length as light blue)

[Ragnarok]

ET at work

[red_coreSix]

Also, take a look at the motor exhaust. It protrudes a little on the ET and is "flat" on the T.

[Ragnarok]

In fact, Yemen had MiG-29SMT 9.18

Along with it goes, usually, and ET.

[Teknetinium]

MiG-29SMT would be great addition to DCS, For now we have to enjoy the MIG-19 vs AIM-9X.

[ZHeN]

you might get Mig-29SMT sooner or later, but not in DCS :D

 

only in a new stalinium patriotic flight sim.

[dimitrischal]

MiG-29SMT would be great addition to DCS, For now we have to enjoy the MIG-19 vs AIM-9X.

 

Easy ...SU22 beat it with flares so MIG19 can also.

[Fri13]

Easy ...SU22 beat it with flares so MIG19 can also.

When it did so fool AIM-9X?

 

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I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[dimitrischal]

Syrian SU22. Was then hit by AIM120.

 

https://youtu.be/P6k-E3Kjg1o

 

I was ironic nevertheless... the shortage in redfor fighters is known for a long time and the problems russian restrictions pose in creating more are overwhelming.

Edited March 30, 2018 by dimitrischal