BrzI Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Anybody know whether loading only one Sorbstiya ECM pod has any negative effect on ECM ability ? Does it half it ? Or does it disable it ? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 No effect in Lock On. If you want to play realistically you should carry both (one pod listens, the other transmits) Also realistically you should have one set per flight of four aircraft, but the jammer itself isn't realistic enough for that to be warranted I think ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Nearly not realistic enough, I took time to read through the export su-27 electronics section manual that covered the jammer, the thing has lots of crap inside and like 10 different operating modes with submodes, really confusing. Strange that such manuals are public, ok, it doesn't tell the precise operating frequencies, but still, China is in a lot of trouble if they haven't upgraded those thingies :P Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesystem Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 A question...where did you read that manual:music_whistling: Nice info, could you tell more about the pod? like the modes and so...never found nice info about it... DCS World, A10C, AV8B, M2k, FA18C, FC3, MIG21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Okay, I googled the first bit of the translation (sure, I'm lazy) http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-37388.html I also took the liberty to translate the jammer modes Setting 1 - Complex jamming of radars and missile seekers Setting 2,3,4 and 5 - Different specific modes of jamming, ensuring optimal jamming of predefined enemy interception systems [ie, presets for different enemy radars] Setting 6 - Blinking jamming signals (During flights in pairs) Setting 7 - Doppler noise distortions Setting 8 - High frequency noise Setting 9 - 'Antipod' type of jamming (llumination of underlying surface, may be used at altitudes of 50-500 m) Further on the manual says: In the first stage, when a radar is detected, there are two types of jamming, predefined before flight. One: for impulse radars and the other, for continious and quasi-continiously transmitting radars. At the second stage a cyclycal distortion is formed, first for a duration of 3 seconds the channels for range and speed, then, in 8 seconds a second set of signals is added, jamming angular coordinates. The total duration of the jamming cycle is 11 seconds. 'Programma' mode [Program mode] I hate these litteral translations, makes everything hard to read and understand :( To sum it up, the jammer will start jamming when somebody locks up the su-27, after that it continiousely transmits 4 jamming cycles until a missile guidance signal is detected, the 2 last of those 4 cycles is to counter missile seeker heads. [Okay, translating, trying to keep it understandible :/] *[ ] meant comments by me, ( ) are manual featured. If the signal from the irradiating radar ceases for a short time (3.5 s), then the system continues repeating the current jamming profile [which is preprogrammed on the ground]. If the time of the illumination pause exceeds 3.5 s, then the system returns to the jamming of search and track radars. As the manual continues it explains what frequency ranges all the subsystems use and transmit in, and explains how they all work, all stuff with lots of numbers and microseconds. Oh well, not bad for an almost 17 year old manual. PS the 4.1 m long container weighs 60kg, without all the crap on the inside. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 BIG D'oh!!! It's not the Sorbytsiya, it's the older Gardenia ECM system, it is housed in the same pods, but heck, what's in them counts... Oh well, at least we know how the Mig-29S jammer should be :P Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trident Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Hehe, I was about to point that out. The Sorbtsya (or whatever the correct spelling is, lol) is a different beast to what is being described in the manual. China probably has the jammer in that manual on their Flankers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Very nice info FF! BTW your 'antipod' jamming is Ground Bounce [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesystem Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Thanks for the info....nice ! DCS World, A10C, AV8B, M2k, FA18C, FC3, MIG21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nscode Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Setting 6 - Blinking jamming signals (During flights in pairs) hihihi :D Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 It's not directly clear wether it's blinking between two jamming. It says 'for flying in pairs' Wait, I'll read further on... Nothing that I can see directly, don't feel like reading all the specs right now. But, since Sorbytsiya can jam for 4, guess it's predecessor can jam for 2??? <-- mumble jumble speculation Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 'ECM Blinking' is a real method, but there might be different types of ECM Blinking. ECM BLinking will supposedly make the radar contact 'warp' on the radar screen a bit. Sort of like you'd see if you pushed the printscreen button :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 'ECM Blinking' is a real method, but there might be different types of ECM Blinking. ECM BLinking will supposedly make the radar contact 'warp' on the radar screen a bit. Sort of like you'd see if you pushed the printscreen button :D Yet it explicitly states that it's for flight in pairs Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophet Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 maybe blinking between aircraft, 1 on 1 off, and they alternate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeroscout Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 nice info. Too bad, 'cause i dont think that's going to end up in BS, but we can still kinda do it. just press the E key repeatedly to get the ECM blinking mode. DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostie Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 just press the E key repeatedly to get the ECM blinking mode. Now that's a good idea, could catch on.;) "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 51st PVO "BISONS" Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeroscout Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Now that's a good idea, could catch on.;) There was a discussion about using this online not too long ago. In lockon right now, i prevents the enemy from aquireing a lock. It's obviousally legal, it's a RL tactic, as Force Feedback has pointed out, but is does make online play a bit anoying. (I guess...) DCS Wishlist: 1) FIX THE DAMN RIVERS!!! 2) Spherical or cylindrical panorama view projection. 3) Enhanced input options (action upon button release, etc). 4) Aircraft flight parameter dump upon exit (stick posn, attitude, rates, accel, control volume, control-surface positions, SAS bias, etc). 5) ADS-33 maneuver courses as static objects. 6) Exposed API or exports of trim position and stick force for custom controllers. 7) Select auto multiple audio devices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesystem Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 And when you can program your joystick you can assign E to a button with the command for blinking...just hold the button and ecm will blink sixty times a minute or so...or even more......is that realistic?:smilewink: DCS World, A10C, AV8B, M2k, FA18C, FC3, MIG21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 I seriousely disagree with the HOTAS mumble jumble, especially concerning ECM ops, off-line no problem, blink at 20000 Hz, Fly the F-117 with 50 AMRAAMs, I don't care and do it myself (not the hotas programming). But online, where everyone can choose the blinking rate they like, no, that's wrong and equals something like auto fire for an in-game semi-automatic weapon. Usually this form of manipulating is called hacking or cheating, as other players have other modes of operation (be it a gun, ECM or fishing rod) compared to the cheaters, hence it's forbidden. And don't pull everything out of context, the anual clearly states that it's blinking 'for flight in pairs' it doesn't state 'blinking as fast and often as you like, to fly in your exported Su-27S somewhere high, and get advantages online' :/ And the 'real' vanilla ECM mode can't be replicated because we don't have ecm against missile seekers OR ECM against search/track radars. And the mode we DO have, high frequency noise, already 'blinks' so assigning HOTAS to do some additional 'blinking' is wrong. Well, ED has the manual as well, it's not that it's something new, been around the net since 2002 or something, it's hard to find (the electronics manual, not the flight manual) but ED has it. They decide what to do with it. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Blinking doesn't require pairs ... whatever it is that they mean by 'for flights in pairs', blinking requires one aircraft, and one jammer only - it will report multiple false positions to the enemy radar within the vicinity of the target; last I read about that method, anyway. It didn't appear to be a lock-breaking method. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Okay, I translated the part about blinking/shimmering whatever. BM (shimmering), consists of a signal which either synchronousely or asynchronousely manipulates (in antiphase) impulses with differing durations (MPS) or 'meander', emitting simultaneousely with two or more jammers on planes in the group and seperated from eachother when viewed from the front (by using shimmering). Ultra high frequency signals can in this case also be modulated in the frequencies DSh [Doppler noise] or VChSh [High frequency noise]. The shimmer period is set on the planes before take off and consists of the following: 0.67; 1; 2; 3 seconds So no 'blinking' after all, it's designed to link multiple jammers, now THAT is what we certianly will never get in 'lomac 2' :P Hope that answers some questions, the translation is rusty, but heck, it's either that or lots of extra words with no additional meaning. Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Pretty cool; is it related to radar beam-width somehow, or do they not say? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfa_Kilo Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Are the pods for the Gardenia ECM system carried on the inner underwing points rather than the wingtips, where Sorbtsiya pods are mounted? I have a video from the Sukhoi Su-27 video family, which shows a number of early production Su-27s (with flat fin tips and 'stings' on the leading edge of the fins just below the fin tip dielectric fairings, some of these a/c are also missing the right fin leading edge dielectric fairing) firing weapons on an exercise. This clip shows one example with the ECM pods mounted on the underwing stations, while another one has the pods mounted on the wing tips. This video might be found on http://www.patricksaviation.com OT: This clip also shows the Su-27s with MERs carrying lots of FAB-250 & FAB-100 bombs :devil: . I have seen MERs on both the Su-27S & Su-33 apart from other members of the family. Also, the Su-33 (and some Su-30MK variants) can carry a 'twinning' rack on its central underwing hardpoint (which is the inner underwing hardpoint for the -27) making it possible to mount two rocket pods (maybe even two AAMs???) or bombs. These features seem to be missing in LOMAC... :closedeyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesystem Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 the mig-29 can also carry a double bomb rack on the inner 2 pylons... But about the hotas programming, I dont do it..because i think it is lame....but i think that there are people that do it....because it is possible.... DCS World, A10C, AV8B, M2k, FA18C, FC3, MIG21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Force_Feedback Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 It's the L-203iE (E for export) system, aka the Gardenia, Sorbytsiya is the L-205, and its successor has something with S in it, the point is, the pods are the same as for the Sorbytsiya (judging from the illustration) and are also carried on the outward hardpoints. The pods are just that, pods, what's inside is what counts the most. Although I can imagine Sorbytsiya pods have some other cone sections, which are radar transparent to allow jamming outside the pod structure :P The Chinese flankers have this system (I guess), and the pods look very similar to Sorbitsya, they are 4.1 meters long and have a diameter of 35cm, dunno how big Sorbitsiya is. I might as well translate all the modes, and give you all the full ECM manual translation, well, I'll upload the original version to some free hosting site (like rapidshare, but without lame time delays, need pointers). HOTAS programming IS lame, in a real car/aircraft you can't flip 3 switches with 2 hands in 0.002 seconds either... Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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