Ala12Rv-watermanpc Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Hi guys, just wanted to ask about a particular take off procedure you can find in airshows...the Hornet makes a hard pull up with landing gear down and the plane almost touches the ground with the tail...a very nice example: As you can see, the plane starts the take off run with flaps full UP... If I do this in DCS, something is wrong with the FCS (I guess) because once there is no WoW, the plane has a pitch up attitude (no auto trim) and in the FCS page I see a +2 for the stabs instead of 0, even once the gear is up no matter the speed nor the AoA, etc...the only way to make the plane to enter in "normal" flight mode is by setting flaps to mid/down and then up again and everyting goes normal then... The question is, how am I suposed to perform this kind of take off?, I highly doubt real life pilots/hornets must take off and then change flap setting momentary in order to make the FBW/FCS to enter auto trim mode right?... At first I thought that the issue could be the take off trim button so i made a test: cold start, NO take off trim button pressed and try to make this take off but nope!, the plane still wants to go nose up (I ignore the reason) until I change flaps to mid/down and then up again... In the real life videos is clear that the horizontal stabs are NEUTRAL so no take off trim button has been pressed prior to take off but in DCS this doesnt seem to work either. All this also makes me wonder...is there any way to DISABLE the take off trim once you have pressed the take off trim button?¿?¿?...using the trim hat button in the stick is impossible as it takes literally minutes to set the stabs to 0 so...how are we supposed to perform this kind of take off? Another sample of this in the Blue Angels team (#7 is the one performing this take off): Btw, in this particular video, the #2 has the flaps mid and also NEUTRAL (or even slightly down) stabs at take off. thanks!! Take a look at my MODS here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fri13 Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I think this is the effect of the same bug that is causing that there is no ground effect when flying low and landing. As the aircraft loves to sink and you just don't get the "buffeting" effect, meaning your take-off is very challenging as well. i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S. i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSS_Sniper Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 You're looking at abnormal, flight show procedures. Things you wouldn't be doing. I'm guessing it's not really important. I9 9900k @ 5ghz water cooled, 32gb ram, GTX 2080ti, 1tb M.2, 2tb hdd, 1000 watt psu TrackIR 5, TM Warthog Stick and Throttle, CH Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkDCS Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 You're looking at abnormal, flight show procedures. Things you wouldn't be doing. I'm guessing it's not really important. Yes why would we want the jet to behave as it does in real life? :huh: Plenty of people fly DCS and do acrobatics. It is important that it behaves like the real plane as close as possible. There is something going on with GE and Flaps. I have been doing some goofy airshow stuff and the jet has something going on with the flaps. Roll inverted and put the flaps down half plane still balloons like you are vertical lol. There's tuning to be done for sure. Rig: 5960X @ 4.5GHZ 32GB 3000Mhz DDR4 Titan XP Dell 3415W 21:9 Thrustmaster Warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Rogue Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 You're looking at abnormal, flight show procedures. Things you wouldn't be doing. I'm guessing it's not really important. You do realize they included the Blue Angles skin for a reason, right? Some folks, not including myself, prefer to do airshow style flying, and not combat. DCS has many uses, depending on the individual, and it's noones place to tell them how they should use the program, or what they should want out of it. 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=4c=Nikola Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 You're looking at abnormal, flight show procedures. Things you wouldn't be doing. I'm guessing it's not really important. I bought the aircraft to fly a flight show flights. 1 Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala12Rv-watermanpc Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 You're looking at abnormal, flight show procedures. Things you wouldn't be doing. I'm guessing it's not really important. Sorry mate, but as many pals here have stated, DCS is about as much realism as possible and imho, FM is one of the top quality features of DCS so this is something that should be fixed if its not supposed to work like this in the real thing...Im not a "only displays" guy by any means, but I GREATLY enjoy just performing maneuvers and comparing them with the real plane just because of the extremely high level of realism they provide so yeah, I enjoy just doing "displays" as much as combat missions... Even if its a "displays" thing, it should be fixed if its not supposed to work like this as it seems to be the case. Also as some of you guys said, this might be a simptom of other FM issues. Anyway, this is a WiP module so being a bug/being a WiP issue hope this to be addressed at some point... To me, it looks like something gets "hang" in the FCS/FBW programming expecting the flaps to be raised to make the plane enter in "normal" flight and until you dont let this to happen the programm has no way to leave the "ground/take off" mode. 1 Take a look at my MODS here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSS_Sniper Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I guess more to the point, it's still very early and something like this being tweaked is going to happen. They've already mentioned several times working on the FM in different areas. I9 9900k @ 5ghz water cooled, 32gb ram, GTX 2080ti, 1tb M.2, 2tb hdd, 1000 watt psu TrackIR 5, TM Warthog Stick and Throttle, CH Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamin_Squirrel Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I guess more to the point, it's still very early and something like this being tweaked is going to happen. They've already mentioned several times working on the FM in different areas. Right. And the more feedback they get the better the chance they have of fixing things. All this also makes me wonder...is there any way to DISABLE the take off trim once you have pressed the take off trim button?¿?¿?...using the trim hat button in the stick is impossible as it takes literally minutes to set the stabs to 0 so...how are we supposed to perform this kind of take off? All the T/O trim does is to set 0/0 for roll/yaw, and 12 nose up on the stabs. Once you've let go of the button you're free to retrim as you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala12Rv-watermanpc Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 Right. And the more feedback they get the better the chance they have of fixing things. All the T/O trim does is to set 0/0 for roll/yaw, and 12 nose up on the stabs. Once you've let go of the button you're free to retrim as you wish. Yeah, I know, but this is the problem, using the trim hat in the stick once you have pushed the T/O trim button is pretty much impossible...as I said, it takes like 20 sec pushing the button to remove 1 point of stab trim, 1 out of 12 so...there isnt any other way to set the stabs to neutral again instantly or any faster than using the hat in the stick??? Take a look at my MODS here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamin_Squirrel Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Ooh I getcha. Put the flaps down, trim as you wish, flaps back up. I'll be much faster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog_No32 Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 […]...as I said, it takes like 20 sec pushing the button to remove 1 point of stab trim, 1 out of 12 so...there isnt any other way to set the stabs to neutral again instantly or any faster than using the hat in the stick??? The slow trim behavior sounds strange to me. Frankly I‘ve never tried to trim it from the T/O 12° down to zero but of course I trim up from T/O 12° to the required trim for a catapult launch (usually 16° or 17° for me) and I don‘t recall that taking any longer than 2-3s. I even went too far into 18° once so I had to trim down by 1° and that was more or less happening instantly. Did you try to first set flaps to HALF, then trim down and then put the flaps back to AUTO? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog_No32 Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 aaah....Flamin Squirrel was just faster in writing :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilWillis Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Well, ED are always monitoring these comments, and if things aren't right, they'll most likely do something about it. Never forget that the pilots in the airshow demonstrations are very skilled, and a cut above the average stick jockey. They demonstrate things that line pilots would never do, and as such, they're exploring the edge of the envelope. I hardly think any flight modelling can behave exactly right out there on the ragged edge, so to expect things to behave that way in a sim is probably asking a lot of any design team. Last time I saw an F-18 show performance, it was Boeing's chief test pilot flying it. It was carrying the bare minimum fuel for the performance, and the show lasted all of 20 minutes at the outside. Maybe he was running a little lighter than you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sideshow Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I bought the aircraft to fly a flight show flights. Airshow jets get modifications fleet jets dont. A huge oil tank for smoke, and larger inverted flight baffles to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
did Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) The show bird in Canada is the same as any other. no mod done except the paint job. Before a demo, the A/C may need to burn some fuel, but i have not seen this all the time and Don't forget that T/O trim affect the rudders in real life on top of the stab. I need to plan a test flight in DCS to review all sort of point. Edited July 6, 2018 by did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKyrThraad993i Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) BA#7 does use Half Flaps during there low transition and bring the up to auto with the gear once they are off the ground. Also if I'm doing a maneuver like the low transition I might give it alittle down trim so it forces me to pull alittle more then I let off the pull once I am leave the ground and bring up the gear. Try testing out the trim down (Push the Trim Hat forward for downward trim) Edited July 6, 2018 by iKyrThraad993i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26-J39 Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 BA#7 give it alittle down trim so it forces me to pull alittle more then I let off the pull once I am leave the ground and bring up the gear. Try testing out the trim down (Push the Trim Hat forward for downward trim) Blue Angels do this. Fly nose trimmed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala12Rv-watermanpc Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 Well, ED are always monitoring these comments, and if things aren't right, they'll most likely do something about it. Never forget that the pilots in the airshow demonstrations are very skilled, and a cut above the average stick jockey. They demonstrate things that line pilots would never do, and as such, they're exploring the edge of the envelope. I hardly think any flight modelling can behave exactly right out there on the ragged edge, so to expect things to behave that way in a sim is probably asking a lot of any design team. Last time I saw an F-18 show performance, it was Boeing's chief test pilot flying it. It was carrying the bare minimum fuel for the performance, and the show lasted all of 20 minutes at the outside. Maybe he was running a little lighter than you? Sure, thats why I posted this, to make ED notice this and eventually fix it. Also want to set clear that despite I posted videos of airshows (where this kind of t/o would be suitable), my intention is not to point this out because I want to do "airshows" but because there seems to be something incorrectly behaving in the plane whatever the situation is...bear in mind that it doesnt look like a big problem at all, just DCS needs to know that when you take off with flaps up the plane should instantly (no WoW) start trimming at 1g so Im sure is not a complex fix :)...About the fuel amount I dont think it has anything to do with this, the problem im having to perform this kind of t/o is just that the plane retains +2 points of stab up instead of trimming for 1g once in the air. The slow trim behavior sounds strange to me. Frankly I‘ve never tried to trim it from the T/O 12° down to zero but of course I trim up from T/O 12° to the required trim for a catapult launch (usually 16° or 17° for me) and I don‘t recall that taking any longer than 2-3s. I even went too far into 18° once so I had to trim down by 1° and that was more or less happening instantly. Did you try to first set flaps to HALF, then trim down and then put the flaps back to AUTO? Ooh I getcha. Put the flaps down, trim as you wish, flaps back up. I'll be much faster. Thanks both, will try doing this, flaps down (mid) then trim then flaps up (auto) again and see if trim is any faster :thumbup: BA#7 does use Half Flaps during there low transition and bring the up to auto with the gear once they are off the ground. Also if I'm doing a maneuver like the low transition I might give it alittle down trim so it forces me to pull alittle more then I let off the pull once I am leave the ground and bring up the gear. Try testing out the trim down (Push the Trim Hat forward for downward trim) According with the videos I posted I think its clear the #7 is not using half flap during t/o but flaps up (auto), at least that what I see. About the slight negative trim I think you are right, is clear in the #2, maybe also because he wants to keep the hornet close to the ground during t/o. 1 Take a look at my MODS here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala12Rv-watermanpc Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 After testing what Hog_No32 and Flamin_Squirrel sugested yeah, the best way to trim (re-trim) after pushing the T/O trim button is with flaps half/down then you can flaps up...this way is MUCH faster so thanks a lot guys. However the behaviour when taking off with flaps full up (auto) still being what I described so the plane constantly pitch up for no reason. Hope ED is now awared of this :thumbup: Take a look at my MODS here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKyrThraad993i Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 watermanpc, Yea its hard to tell if he started with flaps half maybe your right ill have to wait till I get home from Boston, MA to get a better video. Again DCS F/A-18C Hornet is still a work in progress so lots of tweaking still coming I bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala12Rv-watermanpc Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 watermanpc, Yea its hard to tell if he started with flaps half maybe your right ill have to wait till I get home from Boston, MA to get a better video. Again DCS F/A-18C Hornet is still a work in progress so lots of tweaking still coming I bet. Great mate!, Im pretty sure both the canadian hornet and the BA one are taking off with flaps on AUTO...take a look at the one in the BA video, its perfectly clear that #7 runs with flaps full UP...sure, this is a WiP so I hope they take a look at this. No stores and a half a bag of gas. Thanks for your reply but again, the reason of this thread is NOT the take off itself which btw behaves pretty much identical to those videos but the FCS/FBW programming in the hornet which prevents the plane to enter "normal" 1g triming flight behaviour once the plane is not WoW (it starts pitching up indefinitely until you set flaps to half/down and then AUTO again). Take a look at my MODS here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmy Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 No stores and a half a bag of gas. This... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] http://www.476vfightergroup.com/content.php High Quality Aviation Photography For Personal Enjoyment And Editorial Use. www.crosswindimages.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ala12Rv-watermanpc Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 This... Did you read my last post?, I will try to explain once again...the reason for this thread is NOT the take off itself but the fact that once there is no WoW and you are in the air with flaps full up (auto), the plane doesnt auto trim for 1g as it should if flaps are up until you set flaps half/full and then up(auto) again...hope its clear finally. Take a look at my MODS here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBS17 Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 (edited) No stores and a half a bag of gas. That's how I do it off the carrier lol.:D :pilotfly: Edited July 7, 2018 by SUBS17 [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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