Doum76 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Hi Doum, for the time being I wouldnt worry about this warning and just fly normally. It wont affect anything in DCS but you wont be able to get rid of the warning either. If you want to keep things real, then activate both pitot heat and eng anti ice and check inlet temp on the ENG page. Accelerate if you see it below 5°C. Or just follow the screenshot procedures that someone posted early in the thread. Thats all I can say as long as DCS has partial things implemented. I dont know a lot, actually I know very little for being a pilot, but the things I know I study them thoroughly so I dont die in real life when Im up there. Thanks! Well nopt bad, i was turing on those 2 things :) Appreciated.
mvsgas Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) I have never worked on F/A-18, I inspected the intake once on a NASA bird in EAA Air venture in 1998 to make sure it had no F.O. so I hardly know anything. Please correct me if I wrong. Now, I can't find a good image of an F/A-18C intake, so will use a F/A-18E/F [ATTACH]189617[/ATTACH] That thing on the front looks like and ice detector probe. For comparison here it is on the F-16 [ATTACH]189618[/ATTACH] So when that gets any ice form on it, it turn the light on. When you turn on the Anti-ice, you tell the computer that if anti-ice is not on (some engine computer will turn it one automatically) to turn it on, the computer (I think on the F404 is a Digital Engine Computer or DEC) will open the ant-ice calve that will send hot air to the front of the motor, including the nose cone and the IGV I think this is a photo of an F110-GE-100, but just pointing the part that I am talking about: [ATTACH]189619[/ATTACH] When you look at the inlet temp, I think you will be looking at t2.0 sensor reading. So if I understand Rains meaning: The inlet ice light, is driven by the Ice detector probe and inlet temp and anti-ice will not affect each other because as you can see they are very far apart. Talking form the F110-GE-100, the only way to tell if the Anti-ice was working, you should see a slight change in EGT at idle power. The needle would barely move but enough to be noted. And to me it would not be a bad thing if the inlet ice light come on and off since it is only saying that ice is forming on the ice detector probe. Now with all that said, non of us knows how is it modeled in DCS. Not sure if it is fully implemented or if right now it could be as simple as: at altitude X turn light on. So, lets stand by and see if it is a bug or normal behavior. Edited July 10, 2018 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
howie87 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 I tested by turning on anti ice on the carrier and taking off. Still got the engine ice advisory warning and master caution. Looks like a bug to me.
mvsgas Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) I tested by turning on anti ice on the carrier and taking off. Still got the engine ice advisory warning and master caution. Looks like a bug to me. The anti ice should not stop the engine ice light from coming on, did your EGT change any? Edited July 10, 2018 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
howie87 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 The anti ice should not stop the engine ice light from coming on, did your EGT change any? I didn't check. But you're saying I would still get an engine ice warning even with the anti ice system on? That doesn't sound right at all to me. I had it on the whole time. Why would the engine still be icing?
mvsgas Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 I didn't check. But you're saying I would still get an engine ice warning even with the anti ice system on? That doesn't sound right at all to me. I had it on the whole time. Why would the engine still be icing? As rain was explaining and I tried to as well. Is not the engine, just the detector probe at the front of the intake. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
howie87 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) As rain was explaining and I tried to as well. Is not the engine, just the detector probe at the front of the intake. Ah ok, I've read back through the thread and see what you mean now. Still, it seems to me that we shouldn't be getting an icing warning when the inlet temperature is 20°C even if the OAT is below freezing. Aerodynamic heating should be sufficient to prevent any ice buildup on the detector probe in the first place. Edited July 10, 2018 by howie87
mvsgas Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Ok, I think this are F/A-18C photos Intake [ATTACH]189633[/ATTACH] F404 [ATTACH]189634[/ATTACH] To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
mvsgas Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Ah ok, I've read back through the thread and see what you mean now. Still, it seems to me that we shouldn't be getting an icing warning when the inlet temperature is 20°C even if the OAT is below freezing. Aerodynamic heating should be sufficient to prevent any ice buildup on the detector probe in the first place. Where are you getting the 20C, the engine page? If So, AFAIK, that is reading T2, with is right next to the engine inlet guide vanes on the front of the engine. The ice detector probe in on the intake itself and not heated, looks like in front of the engine. Maybe one of the guys that work on F/A-18 will let us know or one of the ED guys can tell us if it is a bug or not. Edited July 10, 2018 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
howie87 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Where are you getting the 20C, the engine page? If So, AFAIK, that is reading T2, with is right next to the engine inlet guide vanes on the front of the engine. The ice detector probe in on the intake itself and not heated, looks like in front of the engine. Maybe one of the guys that work on F/A-18 will let us know or one of the ED guys can tell us if it is a bug or not. https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=189586&d=1531168120 Put it this way - If the T2 was reading 25°C would you really expect to see ice buildup on the ice detector probe? In that photo of the inlet you posted the T2 and ice detector probe look about the same distance from the engine face. I wouldn't expect to see an engine icing warning above Mach 0.3 unless the T2 was reading below 5°C as listed in the NATOPS and shown here. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3558278&postcount=29
mvsgas Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Put it this way - If the T2 was reading 25°C would you really expect to see ice buildup on the ice detector probe? Under icing conditions, yes. Anyway, will see if it is a bug or not. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
howie87 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 An inlet temperature of 25°C at Mach 0.7 is clearly not indicative of 'icing conditions'. Look here! https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=189390&d=1530993784 At Mach 0.7 it's anything below 5°C down to -7.5°C.
howie87 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Inlet icing linked to outside air temperature rather than inlet temperature Please see tests done in this post. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3560450&postcount=121 This chart shows the actual conditions for inlet icing and that they are tied to inlet temperature, not OAT. https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=189390&d=1530993784 The NATOPS stated corrective action is to increase airspeed until INLET TEMP is at least +5°C (10° preferred), which ties in with that graph. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180707/8ebd3763577f0f8cf49c9e52204550a1.jpg
BlueAngel Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 So, after all this reading, I'm not sure to take this as a bug or just a poorly implemented feature. I would just like to know how ED considers this be an actual flaw or not. It should only occur under specific circumstances, because flying in the Persian Golf at 5000ft and getting this warning when OAT is 30ºC sounds wrong to be honest. And it happens at random during the flight, by the way. "The natural function of the wing is to soar upwards and carry that which is heavy up to the place where dwells the race of gods. More than any other thing that pertains to the body it partakes of the nature of the divine." — Plato, Phaedrus.
Eagle7907 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Seems to me that the simulation of ice accumulation is in question. Also seems like the simulation of the aircraft ice protection system may be not 100% as well. What seems logical to me is if the lip heat is turned on, you should see an increase in EGT but wouldn’t you also see an increase in inlet air temp since the bleed air is being used to remove the ice on the blades spinner and lip? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Win 10, AMD FX9590/water cooled, 32GB RAM, 250GB SSD system, 1TB SSD (DCS installed), 2TB HD, Warthog HOTAS, MFG rudders, Track IR 5, LG Ultrawide, Logitech Speakers w/sub, Fans, Case, cell phone, wallet, keys.....printer
Eldur Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 I still think it's off in some way. There's been quite some discussion on it, I posted this over there: That was roughly at 14-15 kft ASL. 55°. I guess it's C regardless of the usual imperial units used in the US where F is commonly used for temps. Even if it was F, it would still be well above the freezing point of 32°F. So the warning deifantely doesn't even come close to make sense. Also, in the miz I flew there (my basic Gulf testbed), I set the temp to 28°C, so following the rule of thumb to subtract 2° every 1 kft, basically I'd be just around 0°C which would support your thesis. On the other hoof, just some 7 minutes ago I had what's in the attachments. 10° inlet temp, no warning at all, 24 kft. Usually I get the feeling the warning occurs at higher speeds, especially in dives or after diving. Didn't exactly test it out though.
Hog_No32 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 159 posts regarding an INLET ICE caution in a combat simulation forum...do we need any more indications that we all are completely nuts? :lol: Seriously, I think this is actually an indication of the super high fidelity of the simulation we‘re all enjoying. A true study level simulation. Not saying it is perfect and bugfree. Also let‘s keep in mind the Hornet is still in EA state. But the attention to detail that we apply here and which so many users contribute to is simply amazing!
Knives Posted July 10, 2018 Author Posted July 10, 2018 Ok, I think this are F/A-18C photos Intake [ATTACH]189633[/ATTACH] F404 [ATTACH]189634[/ATTACH]Thank a lot for the photos, they are self explanatory. Where are you getting the 20C, the engine page? If So, AFAIK, that is reading T2, with is right next to the engine inlet guide vanes on the front of the engine. The ice detector probe in on the intake itself and not heated, looks like in front of the engine. Maybe one of the guys that work on F/A-18 will let us know or one of the ED guys can tell us if it is a bug or not.In the tests I did explained in this post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3560450 I get the INLET ICE caution whenever the atmospheric temp at my current altitude and position is below 0°C. Regardless of my speed and humidity if it is simulated. You can see the atmospheric temp at the top right corner in the attached photo in mentioned post. You can also try the attached mission file which has a script that print the atmospheric temp at your current point in space. (in Others radio item).
Rainmaker Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 You are misinterpreting the manual. Inlet Ice is not TIED to Inlet Temp, that is incorrect and not how the system works. It has been discussed at length in the other thread.
Knives Posted July 10, 2018 Author Posted July 10, 2018 159 posts regarding an INLET ICE caution in a combat simulation forum...do we need any more indications that we all are completely nuts? Seriously, I think this is actually an indication of the super high fidelity of the simulation we‘re all enjoying. A true study level simulation. Not saying it is perfect and bugfree. Also let‘s keep in mind the Hornet is still in EA state. But the attention to detail that we apply here and which so many users contribute to is simply amazing!Knowledge is like money: to be of value it must circulate,and in circulating it can increase in quantity and, hopefully, in value. - Louis L’Amour
Knives Posted July 10, 2018 Author Posted July 10, 2018 You are misinterpreting the manual. Inlet Ice is not TIED to Inlet Temp, that is incorrect and not how the system works. It has been discussed at length in the other thread.Ambient Temp ties them all. Icing conditions (INLET ICE) = Ambient Temp + Other Parameters ☓ Factors INLET TEMP = Ambient Temp + Aerodynamic Heat of Inlet. Were Aerodynamic Heat of Inlet = Mach Speed ☓ Factor.
Rainmaker Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Ambient Temp ties them all. Icing conditions (INLET ICE) = Ambient Temp + Other Parameters ☓ Factors INLET TEMP = Ambient Temp + Aerodynamic Heat of Inlet. Were Aerodynamic Heat of Inlet = Mach Speed ☓ Factor. That in reference to the inlet temps on the engine page that keep getting continuously posted (OP’s screenshot). Everyone is under this presumtion that they are provided by the same sensor when it’s just not the case. Your “script” has been the only way so far That I have seen to monitor the actual input used to initiate the Inlet Ice caution. The guys that are using the engine page are going about it wrong as your data in the other thread supports.
howie87 Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Inlet temp should give a fair indication of inlet icing. That's why the NATOPS says to switch on anti-ice and and increase airspeed until the caution is removed and inlet temp is above 5°C. The icing sensor and inlet temperature probe are right next to each other. Edited July 10, 2018 by howie87
Rainmaker Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Can’t speak for modeling and how it’s coded, but keep in mind inlet ice detectors do not measure temp, they measure ice build-up. Just because air tenp at a T2 probe is above freezing, that doesn’t mean that icing cannot happen. There’s a reason that ice FOD advisories for aicraft start above a freezing ambient temp in many cases. You can’t tie them directly together. If you look at the manual, it doesn’t give corrective actions to make the light go away, it does so to decrease the potential on injesting ice into the motor...so you are inferring some info that’s not stated. As I’ve already said In the other thread, it may need worked, but many of you have the wrong expectations of system operation even if it is coded properly.
Knives Posted July 10, 2018 Author Posted July 10, 2018 From the photo. They are at the distance from the inlet lip but at different angles. Moreover, and if I'm not mistaken, the Eng Anti Ice vent is at 11 o'clock.
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