AUTO bomb steering line

[Harlikwin]

 

Another example.

 

I'm pretty sure the JAG did not use the same ARBS system as the Harrier?

[al531246]

I'm pretty sure the JAG did not use the same ARBS system as the Harrier?

 

I think he's just referencing how a normal ASL functions. CCRP fall lines are all nearly identical since the 80's.

[Holbeach]

I've spent some time practicing with CCIP, bombs, rockets etc. so now I tried CCRP and found chasing the fall line at 20000' straight and level, in a mode that might not be modeled correctly, a bit tedious and not that accurate with mk 82s dropped on a bridge. Maybe it's better suited to LGBs when I get round to it.

 

 

CCRP Dive toss and Low level, 500', Toss Bombing, on the other hand, is much more interesting, exciting and a lot easier to do, with accurate results on bridge sized targets achieved, which will get better with practice.

 

 

As an aside, all modes have had 100% replay success, except CCRP, where not a single replay has worked.

 

 

..

[Harlikwin]

CCRP does "ish work with LGB's since they can steer out any real errors that you are inducing by having a squirley non-functional ASL line. Dumb bombs we are just mostly SOL for now.

 

Dive toss is not actually implemented as it actually works in the real harrier (with programmable release angles, setup tones, 4g pullup). I'm assuming you are just pulling up using the "regular" auto mode, and if thats actually fairly accurate (it shouldn't be for a wide variety of reasons) it just speaks to the sad state of "arcade" mode bombing in the harrier.

[Harlikwin]

Also, for the sake of argument, here is an ASL that seems to behave alot like what we have with the harrier at the moment. The ASL has to be flown over the target point, and doesn't "rise up" from the target diamond.

 

[some1]

No it does not. The one in BMS is actually usable and never guides you away from the target:

[Schmidtfire]

Harrier ASL line does not work as intended . That is why it is in the bugtracker being tested.

So that settles that.

 

Just had a short flight, trying to CCRP Mk82's with DMT. That was the most frustrating DCS experience in a while...

 

ASL line veering all over the place, and guides away from the target! DMT did not contrast-lock the target, but the ground. Managed to get a bomb off just in time but it landed off target...

 

As Im turning around for a second attack more or less the entire airframe tips over. I had to wrestle my stick (TM with extension) to keep the Harrier from going inverted.

 

It's been a year since release but the current state does not reflect it.

Im patient when it comes to modules, but Im leaving this $69.99 puppy parked :mad:

Edited February 7, 2019 by Schmidtfire

[shagrat]

Also, for the sake of argument, here is an ASL that seems to behave alot like what we have with the harrier at the moment. The ASL has to be flown over the target point, and doesn't "rise up" from the target diamond.

 

No, it does not move away from the target proportional to aircraft bank.

It readjusts for wind/speed/attitude changes, which is absolutely ok.

In general, it is still indicating in which direction you should put the Velocity Vector to overfly the target and not leading you away from it like the Harrier ASL does currently, as soon as you bank.

Also the ASL should not rise from the target mark. It should be an infinite line going through (!) the release point, which when flying straight and level, with no crosswinds should be between you and the target, so the infinite ASL should then intersect the target mark, to place you on a course towards the release point in front of the actual target. The release cue is what designates the actual release point, when the ASL, release cue AND Velocity Vector match...

[Holbeach]

CCRP does "ish work with LGB's since they can steer out any real errors that you are inducing by having a squirley non-functional ASL line. Dumb bombs we are just mostly SOL for now.

 

Dive toss is not actually implemented as it actually works in the real harrier (with programmable release angles, setup tones, 4g pullup). I'm assuming you are just pulling up using the "regular" auto mode, and if thats actually fairly accurate (it shouldn't be for a wide variety of reasons) it just speaks to the sad state of "arcade" mode bombing in the harrier.

 

 

Yes, I realize DT is not implemented, so I'm using what does work, as described in the Falcon 4 manual, which suits me fine in my RAF Harrier, operating against an island in the S Atlantic, (Crimea) from a carrier, in the early 80s.

Here they added an adaption to the original sight, to allow toss bombing, after a loss from manpads, from LL attacks on Stanley, with retarded, delay timer, bombs.

 

 

Auto release offset IP pop ups and LL toss bombing, work well with CCRP as we have it at the moment and I don't intend hanging around for something else to happen, so this what I'm using for my favourite form of bombing.

 

 

..

[Deano87]

No it does not. The one in BMS is actually usable and never guides you away from the target:

 

Agreed. The BMS fall line works nothing like the one in the Harrier currently, that is to say it actually works ;)

[Harlikwin]

 

 

Auto release offset IP pop ups and LL toss bombing, work well with CCRP as we have it at the moment and I don't intend hanging around for something else to happen, so this what I'm using for my favourite form of bombing.

 

 

..

 

Well the bug there from my understanding of how loft bombing should work based on what is in the TAC manual is it "shouldn't work" if you did it like that. Hence the Arcade mode comment.

[Harlikwin]

Agreed. The BMS fall line works nothing like the one in the Harrier currently, that is to say it actually works ;)

 

Ok my bad then. Its been way too long since I played BMS.

[shagrat]

Auto release offset IP pop ups and LL toss bombing, work well with CCRP as we have it at the moment and I don't intend hanging around for something else to happen, so this what I'm using for my favourite form of bombing.

..

I'd rather have it working correct in ALL modes and not "well" by coincidence.

I am a bit disappointed that the base functionality of a strike aircraft like dropping bombs is still heavy WIP after more than one year of early access.

Not one(!) of the automated bombing modes works as it's supposed to.

CCIP has no reflected cue and the dashed/non dashed symbology appears for the wrong reasons. CCRP has the borked ASL, all advanced modes from CCIP-to-AUTO conversion to LOFT aren't even begun.

So basically we can lase LGBs while ignoring the HUD mostly...

[Harlikwin]

I'd rather have it working correct in ALL modes and not "well" by coincidence.

I am a bit disappointed that the base functionality of a strike aircraft like dropping bombs is still heavy WIP after more than one year of early access.

Not one(!) of the automated bombing modes works as it's supposed to.

CCIP has no reflected cue and the dashed/non dashed symbology appears for the wrong reasons. CCRP has the borked ASL, all advanced modes from CCIP-to-AUTO conversion to LOFT aren't even begun.

So basically we can lase LGBs while ignoring the HUD mostly...

 

Exactly this. Most of this should have worked on day 1, the fact its not working on day 423 or any day in-between is pretty egregious. At least basic CCRP/CCIP modes should work on day 1. Adding fancy missiles/LGBs that can be a WIP. Currently its totally backwards.

 

I also have concerns on how well the modeling of the various ways the harrier "solves" the bombing triangle (mainly height above target) is either not modeled at all or is grievously bugged as well. But I don't have really good ways of testing it, so unless the Dev's are willing to make a post about how they understand it works IRL, and here is how we simulate that in the game, its probably gonna be a black box.

 

This also pertains to loft bombing "working" when it shouldn't since it seems like the current "computer" just always just seems to have the perfect solution regardless of any actual real inputs it "should" be using.

[Holbeach]

I'd rather have it working correct in ALL modes and not "well" by coincidence.

I am a bit disappointed that the base functionality of a strike aircraft like dropping bombs is still heavy WIP after more than one year of early access.

Not one(!) of the automated bombing modes works as it's supposed to.

CCIP has no reflected cue and the dashed/non dashed symbology appears for the wrong reasons. CCRP has the borked ASL, all advanced modes from CCIP-to-AUTO conversion to LOFT aren't even begun.

So basically we can lase LGBs while ignoring the HUD mostly...

 

 

There's nothing to disagree with here, it should work but it doesn't.

 

 

This also applies to several other modules, which have had sight problems for years and have not been fixed.

I don't intend to wait around for years for it to be fixed, so I am using what does work.

 

 

Toss bombing is my thing and has been my main form of entertainment for Mig 21, F 86, Hawk etc. which have no sight aids.

Now I have the luxury of Auto Release.

 

Reading the last 14 pages, it appears that the fault has been acknowledged, but keep up the pressure, it needs to be sorted.

 

 

..

[Holbeach]

Well the bug there from my understanding of how loft bombing should work based on what is in the TAC manual is it "shouldn't work" if you did it like that. Hence the Arcade mode comment.

 

 

CCRP Dive Toss, as described by an F-16 pilot in the Falcon 4 manual, is exactly like this and was the preferred method for taking out AAA and suchlike, when a standoff was required and that's what he used in real life. It's not arcade and you can use it in our Harrier, with good results.

 

 

The ASL doesn't work correctly, but it's less important in this type of attack, because the target box is always in sight and it dosn't wave much from below it.

 

Climb the pitch ladder wings level keeping the ASL on the centre line and from below the box. With an auto release you've got a good chance to hit the target if you've done it right.

 

 

..

Edited February 9, 2019 by Holbeach

[Harlikwin]

CCRP Dive Toss, as described by an F-16 pilot in the Falcon 4 manual, is exactly like this and was the preferred method for taking out AAA and suchlike, when a standoff was required and that's what he used in real life. It's not arcade and you can use it in our Harrier, with good results.

 

 

The ASL doesn't work correctly, but it's less important in this type of attack, because the target box is always in sight and it dosn't wave much from below it.

 

Climb the pitch ladder wings level keeping the ASL on the centre line and from below the box. With an auto release you've got a good chance to hit the target if you've done it right.

 

 

..

 

Yeah I know what dive toss is. I know why its used. More importantly I know how it works. As currently modeled in the DCS Harrier, I also know that if using conventional CCRP mode it shouldn't hit shit. The harrier has a LOFT delivery mode, its very well detailed in section 2-56 of the tac manual. The DCS harrier does not implement this at all currently. Very crudely, the way it "should work" the pilot inputs the loft angle he wants to use based on the specific weapon in question, then enters the target in the INS (ARBS/TV is typically not used due to lack of angular data on these deliveries, yet another thing unmodled in DCS harrier). The MC then provides him the proper ques (not modled on DCS harrier), it also tone ques prior to and during the proper 4G pullup profile. There is NONE of this in the DCS harrier.

 

Look I get it, you want to be able to do toss bombing, and I guess it works using CCRP modest. It shouldn't for a variety of reasons relating to how this works IRL.

 

Bombing in the harrier is IMO for the most part ARCADE mode. Accurate bomb delivery has to solve a bunch of problems that aren't even remotely modeled in DCS harrier (and at a guess maybe not in any other modules IDK).

 

1. IRL the MC has to know where the plane is, where the target is, and what the relationship between the two is.

a) Where the plane is, given the sad state of the INS system (magic basically) the MC always perfectly knows where the plane is. IRL this is a major set of issues to solve, and one of the reasons I want it realistically want it implement. INS off? Bombs off... Its that simple. Current DCS implementation: magically pull XYZ coords, and perfect velocity information from the game engine.

 

b) Where the target is, either you do this by punching in coordinates (which you can do), or designate a target with the TV mode, and the ARBS figures out where it is in relation to your plane (AFAIK not actually modeled) or c) use a LST and then ARBS uses the same angle rate info to figure out where the tgt is. As near as I can tell in DCS, whatever you designate has perfect XYZ coordinates (the ARBS has limitations, and innacuracies depending on how well you use it)

 

c) Relationship between the two. The FC using a bunch of angle and rate data, airspeed, alt data and so forth figures out the relationship to the target solves the bombing triangle for you (provided the data is right) solves the ballistic problems for the weapon at hand and then and gives you the proper symbology to actually attack it properly.

 

Currently in this thread, we are only discussing point C) why the ASL is FUBAR. I'm 90% confident that neither A nor B are actually modeled beyond asking the engine for the answer, which is where the ARCADE mode comment comes from. DCS is supposed be a sim, and if you don't bother simulating things like wrong inputs, or error rates in the system, why the hell bother, I can go play ace combat and drop virtual bombs on shit...

[Shadow_1stVFW]

I can go play ace combat and drop virtual bombs on shit...

 

But... Don't we....

 

 

Nevermind...

[Harlikwin]

But... Don't we....

 

 

Nevermind...

 

Yeah but i want to miss if i do things ABC wrong like IRL. I wanna work for them dead pixels.

[Fangsout]

AUTO bomb steering line

 

The ASL is slaved to the target designation diamond and is geo stabilized if you can call it that. It runs straight up and down and is not affected by aircraft bank angle. If you were turning toward the target, there would be no ASL until the designation was in the hud field of view. As the target entered the fov you would see the ASL

Running through it and then would need to put the VV on the line. As implemented in DCS it’s all sorts of jacked up. It is not a valid release unless the ASL is touching the circle of the VV. The bomb fall line also shows up later than it should. In the AUTO mode you also have loft deliveries which aren’t implemented in DCS. Level drops will also display an estimated time of fall after release. A reflected cue and auto conversion feature would be useless until the ASL works right. Also if I really wanted to nitpick, being in BAUT and using the barometric altimeter as the height above target source is the least accurate way of delivering ordnance. I love flying the DCS harrier for fun, but the avionics is it’s weak point.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Fangsout

[minimi66]

I REALLY hope they get this ASL/AUTO Bombing issue sorted out on both the Harrier and, for me, more importantly when the time comes....the F-15E!!!

 

 

If it doesn't end up working on the Mudhen then....

 

 

What's the point? Might as well go fly the Milviz F-15E in FSX!! :-0

 

 

Come on RAZBAM, please fix this!

[=DECOY=]

Its being worked on as we speak

[minimi66]

Awesome!!

 

 

Great to hear that =DECOY=!!

 

 

Thanks for the update.

[shagrat]

Its being worked on as we speak

Thank you! Finally an official feedback. That is really good news. No I can wait patiently, knowing that the input was read and acknowledged. :)

[shagrat]

It has been fixed!!!! Thank you Razbam!

Just tested after the patch today and now it behaves correctly....

 

Decoy added it to the resolved bugs section!

Now, we can close this thread and move on to the CCIP inverted cue and CCIP/AUTO conversion in due time... ;)