J-11A Discussion

[musolo]

Hi guys! Wonder what is the difference between J-11A RKL-609 ECM Pod and Su-27 L005 ECM pod? Googling it didn`t help. Are their jamming differences if there are any modeled in DCS at all?

Are there any advantages ? Or its just different 3d model and name. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by musolo

[dundun92]

In DCS its the same. Theres only 1 adjustable factor for DCS ECM, and thats the strength, and for both its the same.

[Hodo]

Any update on the cockpit for the J-11A?  I do enjoy flying this aircraft but it is not much better or worse than the Su-27/33 right now.

[Irisz]

Could the developers have an intention to at least correct the range of the radar?

 

Upgrading has been proposed in three stages. The first stage is focused on upgrading air-to-air capabilities and adding some air-to-ground capabilities, by adding a new Baget-55 processor and MVK computer to the existing SUV-27 weapons control system and N001 radar. The new processor and digital computer have data exchange capability through a MIL-STD-1553b equivalent databus. The upgrades to the radar allow use of the RVV-AE/ R-77 AAM. In this first stage the radar can engage two targets simultaneously. The N001 radar also incorporates new modes, and is given the designation N001EM. An air-to-surface mode has been added, capable of acquiring large surface targets from 400km and small-sized surface targets to a range of 120km; it is also capable of terrain mapping (through synthetic aperture), moving target image selection and air-to-surface missile guidance. The Su-30KN can carry up to six Kh-29T TV-guided missiles or up to six KAB-500Kr TV-guided bombs. It can also use the Kh-31A and Kh-31P missiles (up to six can be carried). Three Kh-59M extended-range TV-guided missiles could also be added but their capabilities cannot be fully realized by the first-stage upgrade. To work with the TV-guided munitions, the presently used single monochrome displays are replaced by a single MFI-55 127x127mm color LCD MFD in both the front and rear cockpit. All the modernized aircraft with be equipped with L005S Sorbtsya ECM pods on the wingtips. Also added in the first stage is the A737 GPS, and a bolt-on in-flight-refueling probe.

The proposed second stage of upgrading is more sophisticated. The existing N001 radar’s twist-cassergrain antenna will be replaced by a new ‘Pero’ passively scanned, phased array antenna, developed by NIIP. This increases the radar’s range by 20-25%, as well as offering track-while-scan and multiple target (up to six) engagement capability. ECCM capability is also improved. The modified radar will be able to track ground targets, but its resolution is believed to be no higher than about 20m. Therefore, only large ground objects could effectively be targeted by the Kh-29T missile's TV seeker. Laser-guided Kh-29L missiles can also be carried, but the crew would only be able to launch them from a dive, using the existing IRST. The OLS-27 IRST is presently only an air-to-air system, so the system's software will be changed, and an illumination mode will be added to the existing laser rangefinder. The OLS-27's capability to detect ground targets is relatively poor and its mount in front of the cockpit restricts the look-down angle, which is why the system can be used only in a dive and only with missiles, so there will be no capability to direct free-fall laser-guided bombs.
Also in the second stage, aircraft will receive a ‘glass cockpit’, with three MFI-68 and two MFI-55 LCD MFDs replacing the analog instruments in each cockpit, as well as HOTAS control.

In the proposed third stage, the existing radar will be completely replaced by a new phased array radar. It will significantly enhance the aircraft’s air-to-ground capabilities through the use of a Doppler beam-sharpening mode and a synthetic-aperture mode. The aircraft will also be equipped with the new SAPSAN targeting pod, designed by UOMZ. It will have FLIR and TV channels integrated with a laser rangefinder/ illuminator, with a much larger field of view, enabling use of laser guided munitions from both a dive and horizontal flight.

 

 

This is the most important part!

The first stage, like R77 capability, plus some air to ground modes, sounds like a dead ringer for the same system already used in the PLAAF SU-27SK/UBK/J-11, which Kanwa described as the "N001E" aka Zhuk PD. (Notwithstanding if some Zhuk-27s were used in some SK or J-11).

With additional air to ground modes, the same system also sounds like a dead ringer for the one used in the SU-30MKK, which has been called with many names, N001ME, N001VE or N001VME. In fact the rest of the paragraph pretty much describes an SU-30MKK, except that the MKK uses four color CRTs, two in the front, and two in the rear.

PLAAF as a testing ground? Why not...

[F-2]

11 hours ago, Irisz said:

Could the developers have an intention to at least correct the range of the radar?

 

Upgrading has been proposed in three stages. The first stage is focused on upgrading air-to-air capabilities and adding some air-to-ground capabilities, by adding a new Baget-55 processor and MVK computer to the existing SUV-27 weapons control system and N001 radar. The new processor and digital computer have data exchange capability through a MIL-STD-1553b equivalent databus. The upgrades to the radar allow use of the RVV-AE/ R-77 AAM. In this first stage the radar can engage two targets simultaneously. The N001 radar also incorporates new modes, and is given the designation N001EM. An air-to-surface mode has been added, capable of acquiring large surface targets from 400km and small-sized surface targets to a range of 120km; it is also capable of terrain mapping (through synthetic aperture), moving target image selection and air-to-surface missile guidance. The Su-30KN can carry up to six Kh-29T TV-guided missiles or up to six KAB-500Kr TV-guided bombs. It can also use the Kh-31A and Kh-31P missiles (up to six can be carried). Three Kh-59M extended-range TV-guided missiles could also be added but their capabilities cannot be fully realized by the first-stage upgrade. To work with the TV-guided munitions, the presently used single monochrome displays are replaced by a single MFI-55 127x127mm color LCD MFD in both the front and rear cockpit. All the modernized aircraft with be equipped with L005S Sorbtsya ECM pods on the wingtips. Also added in the first stage is the A737 GPS, and a bolt-on in-flight-refueling probe.

The proposed second stage of upgrading is more sophisticated. The existing N001 radar’s twist-cassergrain antenna will be replaced by a new ‘Pero’ passively scanned, phased array antenna, developed by NIIP. This increases the radar’s range by 20-25%, as well as offering track-while-scan and multiple target (up to six) engagement capability. ECCM capability is also improved. The modified radar will be able to track ground targets, but its resolution is believed to be no higher than about 20m. Therefore, only large ground objects could effectively be targeted by the Kh-29T missile's TV seeker. Laser-guided Kh-29L missiles can also be carried, but the crew would only be able to launch them from a dive, using the existing IRST. The OLS-27 IRST is presently only an air-to-air system, so the system's software will be changed, and an illumination mode will be added to the existing laser rangefinder. The OLS-27's capability to detect ground targets is relatively poor and its mount in front of the cockpit restricts the look-down angle, which is why the system can be used only in a dive and only with missiles, so there will be no capability to direct free-fall laser-guided bombs.
Also in the second stage, aircraft will receive a ‘glass cockpit’, with three MFI-68 and two MFI-55 LCD MFDs replacing the analog instruments in each cockpit, as well as HOTAS control.

In the proposed third stage, the existing radar will be completely replaced by a new phased array radar. It will significantly enhance the aircraft’s air-to-ground capabilities through the use of a Doppler beam-sharpening mode and a synthetic-aperture mode. The aircraft will also be equipped with the new SAPSAN targeting pod, designed by UOMZ. It will have FLIR and TV channels integrated with a laser rangefinder/ illuminator, with a much larger field of view, enabling use of laser guided munitions from both a dive and horizontal flight.

 

 

This is the most important part!

The first stage, like R77 capability, plus some air to ground modes, sounds like a dead ringer for the same system already used in the PLAAF SU-27SK/UBK/J-11, which Kanwa described as the "N001E" aka Zhuk PD. (Notwithstanding if some Zhuk-27s were used in some SK or J-11).

With additional air to ground modes, the same system also sounds like a dead ringer for the one used in the SU-30MKK, which has been called with many names, N001ME, N001VE or N001VME. In fact the rest of the paragraph pretty much describes an SU-30MKK, except that the MKK uses four color CRTs, two in the front, and two in the rear.

PLAAF as a testing ground? Why not...

I was under the impression air to ground and long range search came with VEP? I though VE had the improved signal processor and native R-77 support.

[Irisz]

13 hours ago, F-2 said:

I was under the impression air to ground and long range search came with VEP? I though VE had the improved signal processor and native R-77 support.

Nothing will come of it! The ED developer says that Deka is the developer of the J-11A. I think Deka doesn't want to work for free, so there isn't even a chance to correct the radar for a range of 120 km.

That's for sure, and I bet, is that Deka does not have access to the Flaming Cliffs code, so they have been making promises to everyone since 2018, and nothing ever comes of it!

It's a shame to waste people's time here with this whole topic!

If the fans of the J-11A were at least interested, they would create the MFI 55 for the J-11A on a fantasy level, which does not violate Russian military laws. The Su-30 mod already has separate air-to-ground radar and separate air-to-air radar and tons of fun weapons absolutely free. And we pay for nothing and for empty promises!

Edited May 22, 2024 by Irisz

[Wyvern]

On 5/22/2024 at 6:32 AM, Irisz said:

Nothing will come of it! The ED developer says that Deka is the developer of the J-11A.

As far as I know, this is not true anymore, the J-11A is being handled by ED by now.
 

On 5/22/2024 at 6:32 AM, Irisz said:

That's for sure, and I bet, is that Deka does not have access to the Flaming Cliffs code, so they have been making promises to everyone since 2018, and nothing ever comes of it!

There will be a reason why it is that way. There were actual plans for an upgraded J-11A, which had to be paused for an uncertain time, due to multiple complications, and the focus shifting onto the JF-17.
 

On 5/22/2024 at 6:32 AM, Irisz said:

It's a shame to waste people's time here with this whole topic!

Then why are you here? This is a forum, nobody forces you to "waste time" on here. Let people talk if they want to talk.

 

[Irisz]

32 perccel ezelőtt Wyvern azt mondta:

Amennyire én tudom, ez már nem igaz, a J-11A-t mostanra az ED kezeli.
 

Lesz oka annak, hogy ez így van. Valójában egy továbbfejlesztett J-11A-t terveztek, amelyet bizonytalan időre szüneteltetni kellett a többszörös bonyodalmak miatt, és a hangsúly a JF-17-re helyeződött át.
 

Akkor miért vagy itt? Ez egy fórum, senki nem kényszerít arra, hogy "időt pazarolj" itt. Hagyd beszélni az embereket, ha beszélni akarnak.

 

I spoke with ED developers a few days ago and they wrote several times that Deka is developing the J-11A. Since 2018, Deka has not been interested in the state of the J-11A!

Talk to people on the forum with respect because you are breaking the rules!

[Wyvern]

5 minutes ago, Irisz said:

Talk to people on the forum with respect because you are breaking the rules!

I am not breaking a single rule by telling you to let people talk about a topic.

 

6 minutes ago, Irisz said:

Since 2018, Deka has not been interested in the state of the J-11A!

because the developent of the JF-17 (and J-8) is more important.

[Irisz]

Specifically, on the basis that the front-end components of the radar remained unchanged, a fire control computer with stronger processing capabilities was replaced at the back-end, and an information processing channel was added.
This channel handles the radar's added TWS capabilities and the ability to use the R-77 active radar guided air-to-air missiles. The improved J-11 can use two R-77s to hit two targets at the same time. Since the Air Force does not require the J-11 fleet to have precise ground strike capabilities, the improved N001E radar is in a sense equivalent to the N001VE that lacks a ground working mode, which is the radar used by the Su-30MKK.

Yes, in reality the J-11A can fly with 6 R-27ETs! The J-11A lua file contains this, it's just disabled, someone won't let you use it! You can check this!

The R-27 series semi-active radar-guided air-to-air missiles are the main combat weapons of the Su-27 beyond visual range air combat. Among them, the R-27ET extended-range infrared terminal guidance model is quite distinctive because it does not actively send out signals at the end of the attack, but the original Su-27 The -27 can only mount a pair of R-27ETs under the wings, not under the fuselage. After the research of our army's scientific and technological personnel, the Su-27 fire control software was cracked and the R-27 series missiles can be mixed at will. At present, the vast majority of the Air Force's Su-27/J-11 have been upgraded and initially possess the capability of beyond-visual-range air combat under modern warfare conditions. From batch 00 to batch 04, a total of 105 J-11s were assembled in 5 assembly batches, continuously increasing the localization rate. While enriching the front-line strength of the Air Force, it also exercised Shenfei's production and manufacturing capabilities.

Since the CRT display in the Su-27/J-11 cockpit has a relatively single purpose, especially it does not have the ability to display electronic maps, this greatly limits the mission range of this long-range aircraft. When a mission requires it, early batches of J-11s will have a domestic GPS electronic map display set up above the CRT display. This display can also be seen on later models of the domestic J-7 and J-8 series.However, since the J-11 only has one MFD, it often still needs a display dedicated to displaying electronic maps so that the MFD can provide other information to the pilot. Therefore, until now, this feature of self-reliance is still the distinguishing feature between China's Su-27 series fighters and Important differences between the Su-27s of other countries’ air forces.

[Irisz]

 

J-11A armament! KH-29T - KAB-500KR - KH-31P!

[Wyvern]

the yellow one is not an J-11A, this most likely is a J-16 or Su-30MKK prototype, as the none of the J-11s have the inner wing pylons.
As for the other pic on the left, its possible that they got upgraded later to carry TV and SEAD weapons, but there is no official and/or trustworthy source that confirms that

[Ramius007]

what breaks current J-11 fidelity is lack of any sort of Chinese weapons, not really lack of better missiles...

[Wyvern]

6 hours ago, Ramius007 said:

what breaks current J-11 fidelity is lack of any sort of Chinese weapons, not really lack of better missiles...

But thats the thing, it didn't have any native chinese weapons.
The only one is the PL-12. There is pictures of an J-11A carrying what appears to be an PL-12. but asides from the tip of the missile, we dont know for sure.
Two more possibilities are the PL-8, although i dont know if there is any source of it being used on the J-11A.
The other missile may be the YJ-91 (chinese license built Kh-31P). That being said, I know that the J-11B is capable of employing it, but as for the J-11A, its unlikely, as the J-11A lacks the systems needed for it.

The closest there is, are Chinese built R-77s and R-27s, but those were identical with the russian ones, although supposedly they were downgraded export variants.

[Ramius007]

I highly doubt that even old j-11's assemled in China didnt get any native missile support later, you dont need huge cockpit or avionics changes to allow this. pl-5's, pl-8's should be there, pl-12 i m not sure, guess it propably requires significant avionics changes and there are most likely planes that get higher priority to use most advanced missiles than J-11A

 

[Wyvern]

3 hours ago, Ramius007 said:

I highly doubt that even old j-11's assemled in China didnt get any native missile support later, you dont need huge cockpit or avionics changes to allow this. pl-5's, pl-8's should be there, pl-12 i m not sure, guess it propably requires significant avionics changes and there are most likely planes that get higher priority to use most advanced missiles than J-11A

 

Thats the problem, nobody really knows. Until there is actual evidence for it, they wont be added. While yes, the J-11As are being upgraded, it is unknown how much, and what exactly. 
So without proper information on it, we wont see anything coming to it

[Irisz]

Edited June 22, 2024 by Irisz

[AeriaGloria]

On 5/25/2024 at 11:37 AM, Irisz said:

Specifically, on the basis that the front-end components of the radar remained unchanged, a fire control computer with stronger processing capabilities was replaced at the back-end, and an information processing channel was added.
This channel handles the radar's added TWS capabilities and the ability to use the R-77 active radar guided air-to-air missiles. The improved J-11 can use two R-77s to hit two targets at the same time. Since the Air Force does not require the J-11 fleet to have precise ground strike capabilities, the improved N001E radar is in a sense equivalent to the N001VE that lacks a ground working mode, which is the radar used by the Su-30MKK.

Yes, in reality the J-11A can fly with 6 R-27ETs! The J-11A lua file contains this, it's just disabled, someone won't let you use it! You can check this!

The R-27 series semi-active radar-guided air-to-air missiles are the main combat weapons of the Su-27 beyond visual range air combat. Among them, the R-27ET extended-range infrared terminal guidance model is quite distinctive because it does not actively send out signals at the end of the attack, but the original Su-27 The -27 can only mount a pair of R-27ETs under the wings, not under the fuselage. After the research of our army's scientific and technological personnel, the Su-27 fire control software was cracked and the R-27 series missiles can be mixed at will. At present, the vast majority of the Air Force's Su-27/J-11 have been upgraded and initially possess the capability of beyond-visual-range air combat under modern warfare conditions. From batch 00 to batch 04, a total of 105 J-11s were assembled in 5 assembly batches, continuously increasing the localization rate. While enriching the front-line strength of the Air Force, it also exercised Shenfei's production and manufacturing capabilities.

Since the CRT display in the Su-27/J-11 cockpit has a relatively single purpose, especially it does not have the ability to display electronic maps, this greatly limits the mission range of this long-range aircraft. When a mission requires it, early batches of J-11s will have a domestic GPS electronic map display set up above the CRT display. This display can also be seen on later models of the domestic J-7 and J-8 series.However, since the J-11 only has one MFD, it often still needs a display dedicated to displaying electronic maps so that the MFD can provide other information to the pilot. Therefore, until now, this feature of self-reliance is still the distinguishing feature between China's Su-27 series fighters and Important differences between the Su-27s of other countries’ air forces.

Are you sure this isn’t just a ferry Lo’s out? The only way to fire R-27T/ET from the inner 4 pylons is by an ejector pylon. And since it’s LOBL, it would need to be dropped with a lock, and maintain the lock until missile ignition (I bet the missile has a limited FOV under intakes, and the centerline I would think would be nearly useless, especially rear centerline!). 
 

Im sure it’s possible, but the fact that all Fox 2s are rail launched as far as I can tell, or tube launched, makes me skeptical of an ejector solution. Especially with the FOV restrictions. Radio waves go through more things then short wave IR and R-27R/ER is LOAL anyways.  

[Ramius007]

I wonder how likely Deka is to fix J-11/Flanker FM and what are perspectives of FF J-11 in the future, even oldest version, I wouldnt mind paying for proper Flanker, either FF or improved FC24 module

[Mike_Romeo]

16 hours ago, Ramius007 said:

I wonder how likely Deka is to fix J-11/Flanker FM and what are perspectives of FF J-11 in the future, even oldest version, I wouldnt mind paying for proper Flanker, either FF or improved FC24 module

Whats wrong with its flight model ?

[Ramius007]

52 minutes ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Whats wrong with its flight model ?

trans and subsonic acceleration is too weak, it should be closer to Eagle than Hornet